Do you regret choosing your power adder?

[Wolfys11]

50 mph to 120 mph, i want to say 3rd gear but i dont remember
Summer day so maybe 80-85 degrees outside
Please apologize the shitty view, i really dont use vcm scanner at all so i did what i could, but i go from 86 deg farenheit to 102. About 15 deg raise. I cant see the map sensor readout here, so if you can tell me how to find it, i can check but heres my unrefutable data of a street pull on a g3x kit, 93 pump gas from shell, manual tranny, stock clutch, g4 intercooler, bap, stock fuel pump, 4k miles on the car, gt500 injectors

let me know where the holes are to be poked in this data gentlemen

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[cbrtrx]

50 mph to 120 mph, i want to say 3rd gear but i dont remember
Summer day so maybe 80-85 degrees outside
Please apologize the shitty view, i really dont use vcm scanner at all so i did what i could, but i go from 86 deg farenheit to 102. About 15 deg raise. I cant see the map sensor readout here, so if you can tell me how to find it, i can check but heres my unrefutable data of a street pull on a g3x kit, 93 pump gas from shell, manual tranny, stock clutch, g4 intercooler, bap, stock fuel pump, 4k miles on the car, gt500 injectors

let me know where the holes are to be poked in this data gentlemen

I just looked up a recent car I did with a g3 and g4 intercooler, 110 pulley, from the 120 to 110 I don't see a big difference in charge temps. From 56 mph to just 95 mph charge temps raised 15 degrees after that they obviously kept rising. Again if you're doing shorter pulls the temps don't rise as much. I like to look at 2 popular measurements, 60 to 130 and 1/4 mile. I don't usually use short bursts to measure against.

If you're happy with your setup that's all that matters. It's nice that we have so many options available to us.

 

[shogun32]

From 56 mph to just 95 mph charge temps raised 15 degrees after that they obviously kept rising. Again if you're doing shorter pulls the temps don't rise as much. I like to look at 2 popular measurements, 60 to 130 and 1/4 mile

surely we can figure out how many BTU/sec the AA cooler can shed at 60mph (more like 30mph flow-thru) at a given ambient, the turbine outlet air temp, and rate of heat transfer from air to the body of the cooler, and plot it. THen you can determine to 2 decimals what the IAT should be at the throttle body or intake runner.

Don't you engineering-minded motor heads spend hours on the dyno+wind tunnel under controlled conditions to measure this to a CI of 0.9?

 

[Forestlump]

surely we can figure out how many BTU/sec the AA cooler can shed at 60mph (more like 30mph flow-thru) at a given ambient, the turbine outlet air temp, and rate of heat transfer from air to the body of the cooler, and plot it. THen you can determine to 2 decimals what the IAT should be at the throttle body or intake runner.

Don't you engineering-minded motor heads spend hours on the dyno+wind tunnel under controlled conditions to measure this to a CI of 0.9?

Yes it could be done but working out anything like this is not a simple task. You are right, it would give you answers.

You'd have to work out the surface area of everything, cooler, pipework, body of charger then determine the Delta T (temperature differential between incoming air and boost). We can assume the same flow speed across the ic for centri and secondary heat exchanger for pd as it's the same car and bumper opening. Then take that away from a continually changing heat source whilst accelerating/ changing gear. Then add in any losses like heat from other sources like radiator wash and heat from the engine. And obviously with the air to air this is simpler as you have the delta T of the ambient minus the boost temp but with an air to water and air again, you have a smaller delta T between the ambient and water and the delta T between the water and boost. So like for like a water system will cool less for the same secondary heat exchanger surface area. Then you could add in thermal inertia for the two setups and that different for both (The PD actually wins on the thermal inertia test but looses on all others). Oh and then just to make it harder, your delta T is reducing as the boost goes around the cooler and pipes and so for every square inch the aluminium is conducting less and less thermal energy from the boost.

And on a Whipple double flow water cooler, it goes through the primary heat exchanger twice, obviously the delta T is highest the first time so that's where the bulk of the energy is transferred and less so on the second pass.

Then after all that you've got to determine how long the boost is subject to all this cooling surface area and that changes with the volumetric demand for air from an engine going through it's power curve.

Between the two setups these values vary greatly even if you assume the same fixed supercharger efficiency of 80% which ofcourse both pd and centri are far from 100% of the time. It changes with rpm and flow rate.

A complete head ache tbh. But if you can picture all this going on in your mind, you don't need results to know what setup has the least loss or higher efficiency. But that's just one argument, you might not care so much about it and specifically want the benefits of the pd arrangement, each to his own.

 

[engineermike]

... im arguing the supercharger itself is MUCH more effecient that the pd,

Show me compressor maps that support this argument. Neither Whipple nor ESS have published maps but Eaton and various turbocharger companies have. As of now, from the data we have, they are neck and neck in efficiency. Interestingly, and any compressor engineer will tell you this, there is no inherent limit to PD blower efficiency. They can and have physically approached 100%. Centrifs, though, are inherently limited.

i will argue its even better than turbos, because turbo vs centri we have the same exact intake housing, with the centri not having the exhaust flowing on the back of the housing

Then you don't understand the thermodynamics behind turbocharging.

 

[Wolfys11]

Show me compressor maps that support this argument. Neither Whipple nor ESS have published maps but Eaton and various turbocharger companies have. As of now, from the data we have, they are neck and neck in efficiency. Interestingly, and any compressor engineer will tell you this, there is no inherent limit to PD blower efficiency. They can and have physically approached 100%. Centrifs, though, are inherently limited.



Then you don't understand the thermodynamics behind turbocharging.

I think you have mixed up what im referencing, our debate is if centri or pd are better thermally, i wasnt talking about flows, i know a whipple will make more hp than ess, but an ess wobt take a huge loss of hp on heat when a whipple will

either way, i posted my data, it supports what i said and claim for ess. I have an external boost gauge that shows 8-11 psi depending how high i rev and temp outside.

the only two reasons i can think of, besides a cheating argument of using ice or something else, is your data on the whipple is not showing true temps through the sensor location and whatnot, or because the water cooled system will hide the heat issue for long enough to show your one pull, and possibly after 10 pulls your setup will finally show what actually goes on heat wise inside the blower. As far as which way the data is skewed i cannot say, but im certain a whipple will not beat a centri for heat

 

[andrewtac]

Then you don't understand the thermodynamics behind turbocharging.

Seems there is a bit of misunderstanding going on in here....

 

[Milktasd]

Is it too late to go all motor?

I have been enjoying the science behind all this though. I’ll probably keep changing my mind until I buy one lol

 

[Zrussian13]

It took me all week but I finally caught up on this ridiculous thread. I've never seen this level of bad information or disregard when facts are posted.

This thread does lead me to believe a few of our newer members probably have truck nuts on their mustangs. Hell they probably think it's helping their iats too.

 

[lo-fi]

Oh this ain't nothing. I was on another forum a long time ago and there was a thread far longer than this on Leatherique, with one set of guys saying it ruined your seats and another set saying it was the best thing ever. So if we can spend that much bandwidth on Leatherique surely this thread can hit another 10 or so pages, lets not be amateurs.

 

[cbrtrx]

I still like my power adder decision. I hope everyone else likes theirs too.

 

[kevinvan6000]

I dont know if this will add anything of value to this thread, but this is a log of my car, ESS G3 with G4 intercooler. I have my IAT sensor relocated to above the 8th cylinder in my Holley low ram manifold. This is on a 100mm pulley, on a 9.3@151 pass. IATs start at 115 and end at 127 at end of the pass. I believe the sensor gets heat soaked from sitting in the aluminum manifold. I used to run a GT350 manifold and I had my IAT sensor located just behind the throttle body. It would read 15-20 degrees cooler on that setup.

 

[Timbuck]

So…what I’ve learnt is all boost is good. I’m in queensland Australia and my NA iat’s on an average drive are higher than wolfy’s boosted in NY.

so I need to go single turbo , e85 and interchiller.

 

[compprep]

Other than the motor blowing up on the dyno due to various issues ( I think shi%*y tune mostly) and the $10K for new motor, etc., still happy with the Procharger stage 2 on my A10. Car is scary fast for me, so maybe never should have done it. Guess I just shouldn't go over 60% throttle and I'll be fine!!

 

[Wolfys11]

So…what I’ve learnt is all boost is good. I’m in queensland Australia and my NA iat’s on an average drive are higher than wolfy’s boosted in NY.

so I need to go single turbo , e85 and interchiller.

Na doesnt have much of any cooling for ait, it just sits nicely at what it can pull into the intake

boost is the best!

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