"yet another BBQ tick" thread - 2017 GT Base

[Kong76]

I have an appt this Monday to have the car looked at for the tick and severe lack of power with AC on. If I get it back with nothing is wrong, I will dump it that week.

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[udcvsean]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but those who have the engine tick, can you hear it when you open the hood and put your ear to the top of the engine? I just tried doing this with my sister on the gas pedal and couldn’t hear any tick from the engine bay. However when I’m behind the wheel I can hear a tick at 1800 to 2200 RPM. Maybe (hopefully) I just have an exhaust leak? I did do a resonator delete with an H-pipe...

 

[CEHollier]

They told me 24-48 hours per response.

Patience Grasshopper. I had my loaner three weeks.

 

[strike-eagle]

Patience Grasshopper. I had my loaner three weeks.

Lol, I'm at exactly 3 weeks today. Hopefully the long block is in this week.

 

[TheLion]

BTW, just found a little more info on Cera Tec. There is one caution with using it, I've read a few (very few) reports of spark plug fouling on cars that have excessively heavy oil consumption over longer term use. More or less Boron Nitride is a very good electrical insulator but also a good thermal conductor. Seems the Prius forums like it for reducing oil consumption and slightly increasing fuel economy on higher mileage Prius's as they tend to start eating oil around 150k to 200k miles on average. There's a few that have been running it for years and are around 180k miles with virtually no oil consumption issues that are common to that car at that mileage. And no they don't seem to have any plug fouling issues either.

Considering oil consumption is very low in my car as is and I run a catch can, there's not much if any oil that will enter the combustion chamber. Given that Boron Nitride enhances the seal of the oil control rings as well as the piston rings, oil consumption is expected to decrease as is the rate of blow by and fuel dilution (much lower on Port Injected engines than TDI engines, so it should be nearly non-existent on the 2nd Gen 5.0's).

I have NOT read any reports of plug fouling on properly functioning engines, from 80k TDI Audi's to a 99 HP Prius, only in a few cases where they used the Boron Nitride additive to reduce oil consumption of cars already consuming excessive amounts of oil has it resulted in any plug fouling. I've also seen some testing on small gasoline engines that shows power improvement. Mope heads, ATV's and dirt bikes. If it's working as intended, that's to be expected. Is it huge? No, but it's measurable. Any places where you can reduce friction means more energy to the wheels.

Cam lobes, valve guides, timing chains and guide plates, piston rings all operate on boundary layer lubrication unlike rod bearings. I wouldn't expect Cera Tec to have any impact on rod bearing wear other than for those with a lot of cold starts, but during normal operation rod bearings are hydro dynamic and are completely separated by two opposing films creating hydraulic pressure. Cam lobes and other metal parts under far lower loads however and do not operate as such and are the primary sources of friction and wear.

Typically cams and piston rings go before rod bearings in a properly operating engine due to wear (slow compression loss over the life of the motor, out of spec cams etc.). I'd imagine the Coyote 5.0 would benefit more from a Boron Nitride additive than say the 5th Gen LT1 6.2L or the Dodge 6.4L because the cam in block design has 1/2 the moving parts that operate on boundary layer lubrication as the part heavy DOHC 5.0L. Frictional losses in DOHC V8's are pretty high comparatively to their cam in block brethren despite having a great volumentric efficiency. So it off-sets some of the potential gains. I'm not suggesting your going to make 25 hp more, but you might see 5 hp to possibly 10 hp more and better fuel economy.

I've seen several tests on motor oil and some measure able and repeatable gains in power just by switching to motor oil with a more ideal additive package and lubricating properties. At any rate, it's a sacrificial wear layer. It's not magic and it's certainly not a one and done application. However there are some real benefits with the only potential risk being plug fouling. Here's the interesting thing, in nearly all reviews I've seen where some reports their oil consumption, they note a reduction in oil consumption. My guess is that as the nano particles coat the pores in the cylinder liners, your getting a much better seal between your piston rings and more importantly your oil control rings. It's more or less a self-polishing process that occurs naturally during engine operation as you use it. Obviously like all polishes or surface layer treatments it will eventually wear off and needs to be replenished.

Yes it's more or less chemically inert, it's NOT going to react with your motor oil package and cause a chemistry change. Your oil will function as is, but with the benefit of seeing less exposure to friction induced heat, less blow by etc. All negative effects of porous metal to metal seals that are not practical to improve upon. I also discovered that Boron Nitride has been used in aviation applications for decades. In fact it was used in WWII aircraft as an oil additive in case the oil pan was pierced by enemy gun fire. It would allow the planes engine to operate for a few minutes with no oil allowing the pilot a small window to land the plan while it still had power.

I've seen once case where it was used in an old Ford Windstar mini-van with over 300k miles on it with some success. It was originally used to as an aid to reduce oil consumption and increase fuel economy in a high mileage car. However the owner hit road debris at one point and punctured the oil pan. The car lost all of it's oil and the owner drove the car with the low oil pressure warning light on for 5 minutes before realizing something was wrong (no oil pressure gauge, just the oil light).

They ended up repairing the pan, filled it back up and the car started and ran without any knocking. Not sure what oil he was running, but a hydrodynamic bearing won't run for 5 minutes without constant supply. Back when I was in high school I worked at Valvoline, I recall a few stories about techs forgetting to fill the cars back up with oil (drained it but put the cap back on thinking it was filled). They would get maybe a mile or two down the road before the engine seized up. I'd imagine the combination of ceramic powder (aka white graphite powder) and oil film were enough keep the rod bearings from contact during that short interval even though there was no fresh oil supply to the bearings.

Boron Nitride: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_nitride

Example of Boron nitride used in small gasoline engines: http://www.topspindesign.com/business/product_test_bn_oil_additive.htm

Investigation of effects of Boron Additives to Engine Oil: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10402004.2014.909549?scroll=top&needAccess=true

LubeTech Boron Nitride Additive: http://www.lubtech.jp/BN_english1.pdf

R&D White Paper on BoroMax Boron Nitride Addtive (note this paper is from 2011, so fairly recent): https://www.scribd.com/document/79309531/Boronmax-Engine-Oil-Additive

The 7th World Congress on Particle Technology (WCPT7) (scroll down, there's a PDF file you can read through the report or download it): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705815002453

Properties of Boron Nitride additives:

1. Reduces friction coefficient of surfaces lubricated by the base oil with the additive (higher efficiency, less wear, less heat)
2. No difference has been found as to the oils viscosity with or without the additive
3. Nano particle sizes pose no thread of clogging filters or finely tolerance passage ways
4. Provides dampening of metal to metal impacts (explains why it quiets down the "BBQ tick")
5. Improves thermal conductivity of metal to metal components
6. Highly temperature stable, provides excellent performance at both low and high temperatures
7. Excellent electrical insulator (only down side would be if excessive amounts came in contact with the spark plugs, could increase the rate of fouling)
8. Fills in pours of metal surfaces providing increased sealing capability of piston rings against the cylinder walls (which has a positive effect on the oil control rings thus reducing blow by and hence fuel dilution of oil and oil consumption, aids in piston ring seal aka compression)
9. Chemically inert, does not react with existing oil additive packages
10. Highly resistant to oxidation

These are all benefits of Boron Nitride oil additive. Down side is primarily possible plug fouling in engines with heavy oil consumption and the added cost. It also my understanding that Boron Nitride is used in aviation oils as well as in some high end automotive oils already. Again, it's not a magic pill. It's not going to make a massive difference, however it will quiet down your normal engine noises, enhances long term wear and decreases frictional losses = more power, less heat and higher fuel efficiency. It's a refinement with an incremental but absolutely measurable gain, it's not a golden egg. For what it's worth I'll be using this in my own car both in the motor oil and gear oil as it's suitable for both. The only application it is not suitable for is 1. Torsen Limited Slip differentials 2. Wet clutches. Those are two applications where we want controlled friction.

I've see no negative impact reported on syncro operation as long as you limit the concentration as they rely more on oil viscosity to slow their rate of spin rather than actual friction. Surely friction plays some role, but much less than one would think unlike a Torsen diff or a wet clutch. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2817017

I'll report back if I have any negative effects in the MT-82 with the recommended concentrations. I've found that just changing from MC 5W-20 semi-syn to Mobil 1 has netted about 2 mpg increase in highway cruising fuel mileage. It typically would average around 22~23. I'm now consistently around 24~25 cruising at 77 mph. Not that I bought the car for fuel economy, but I have no problem using as little fuel as is necessary when I'm not on it and just enjoying the Grand Touring characteristics of the car.

 

[accel]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but those who have the engine tick, can you hear it when you open the hood and put your ear to the top of the engine? I just tried doing this with my sister on the gas pedal and couldn’t hear any tick from the engine bay. However when I’m behind the wheel I can hear a tick at 1800 to 2200 RPM. Maybe (hopefully) I just have an exhaust leak? I did do a resonator delete with an H-pipe...

passenger or drivers sidefender ?

 

[strike-eagle]

Update - Finally got a hold of someone since my previous service advisor either got fired or found a new job. They said my long block came in on Friday and they were hoping to have it in sometime this week. I specifically asked if it was the entire engine and they said yes. I really hope my new advisor isn't mistaking a short block for a complete engine, but I guess we'll find out. I'll post back once I know more.

 

[TheLion]

Push them to check the side to side clearances on the bottom end. Let's get some data! It's not hard to do with a feeler gauge. This would help us confirm the Ford V8 (many flavors, 5.0L, 6.2L and 6.7L D) ticking which is believed to be due to tolerance stack up on the bottom end clearances being too big.

 

[pro 5.0]

I wonder if the rods are too narrow on the big end or is the crank machined wrong in regards to the excessive clearance.

 

[GT Pony]

I wonder if the rods are too narrow on the big end or is the crank machined wrong in regards to the excessive clearance.

Could be either one ...which can cause excessive clearance stack up. Drawings can be perfect, but if manufacturing can't make parts to drawing specs, then problems can occur.

 

[pro 5.0]

The cranks have been the same since 2011 my guess is the rods are out of spec.

 

[GT Pony]

The cranks have been the same since 2011 my guess is the rods are out of spec.

The problem is, the dimensions of the rod big end width and the crank journal width is not listed in the factory service manual. All they list is the rod side clearance and the crank end play clearance. Only Ford knows what the rod and crank dimensions are because they have the manufacturing drawings.

 

[pro 5.0]

It is pretty sad that the engine builders at Ford send out engines that are not within the expected tolerances, I guess quality job 1 is no longer priority.

 

[TheLion]

Your forgetting that there are maybe 55 owners out of 120,000 that we know of...to be sure there are likely others not on the forums but of those we know of it's 0.046% with issues of the 120,000 GT's produced in just those 3 years (2015-2017).

So I wouldn't necessarily say that's bad quality. Even if you multiplied that by a factor of 10, then there are 550 GT owners with these types of problems, your at 0.46%, so not even 1/2 a percent of all Coyote V8's produced for the Mustang.

There are 600,000 V8 F-150's made in that same time span. Suppose there are 1,000 owners with major internal issues, that's 0.17% failure rate. The math doesn't indicate a major design or quality issue, it indicates a small percentage of production fall out in a mass production engine that's 1/2 the cost of competing European offerings.

I'd say that's pretty good, but certainly frustrating if you get one of those with issues. On the bright side of things there are three solutions: 1. Work with the dealership to see if you can get a short block replacement if it's really bad 2. if it's mild or minor use a hBN based oil additive like Cera Tec or Xenum VRX 500, possibly even MoS2 would achieve the same results 3. Trade in your GT for an SS or RT Scat pack then go get a new short block from them once you spin a rod bearing in a stock engine or get low RPM rattling....

 

[pro 5.0]

It all comes down to matter of opinion, I am a picky person by nature and am of the opinion if you are going to do something do it right the first time. There is no excuse for a car manufacturer to put an engine into service that has clearance issues that will ultimately cause the consumer a headache. From my experience with dealers they might fix 1 problem but will cause another be it paint related or an oil leak after a major engine repair, I would not be happy with them touching my brand new car.

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