BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[Red65]

i dont think so honestly... it still idles at 750

Did you switch to 5w50 like most FI companies advise to do with the coyote?

I only ask because I have a sneaking suspicion that the tick is related to the timing chain tensioners. The OEM tensioners do not appear to have any sort of gasket at the mating surface. This would explain why sometimes thicker oil / higher oil pressure and flow tends to make the tick go away. It would also make sense why some engines don't tick at all, since very slight manufacturing differences may yield a better seal between the head and tensioner even without a gasket. For a while now, I have wanted to see if someone that had a really prevalent BBQ tick would try swapping the OEM tensioners out with MMR's since they have an O-ring to seal to the head. If this truly was the case as to why the BBQ tick happens, it makes sense why the tick doesn't appear to have much of any effect on longevity of the engine. The only time these engines tick is under no / very little load. As soon as you get into the throttle the tensioner acts like it should and the pump produces enough oil flow to overcome the leak.

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[Strokerswild]

I only ask because I have a sneaking suspicion that the tick is related to the timing chain tensioners. The OEM tensioners do not appear to have any sort of gasket at the mating surface. This would explain why sometimes thicker oil / higher oil pressure and flow tends to make the tick go away. It would also make sense why some engines don't tick at all, since very slight manufacturing differences may yield a better seal between the head and tensioner even without a gasket. For a while now, I have wanted to see if someone that had a really prevalent BBQ tick would try swapping the OEM tensioners out with MMR's since they have an O-ring to seal to the head. If this truly was the case as to why the BBQ tick happens, it makes sense why the tick doesn't appear to have much of any effect on longevity of the engine. The only time these engines tick is under no / very little load. As soon as you get into the throttle the tensioner acts like it should and the pump produces enough oil flow to overcome the leak.

I've thought for a while that the chain tensioners might be the cause for the tick, coupled with the fact that the cam sprockets aren't actually round but slightly oblong. Any discrepancy in hot idle oil pressure at the tensioner might result in an occasional bit of lash with the chain guide, presto, noise.

But what do I know, I'm just a mechanical engineer with crazy ideas.

 

[noGreta!]

Are any of you getting paid for Ford's R&D work you are performing?

 

[GT Pony]

Did you switch to 5w50 like most FI companies advise to do with the coyote?

I only ask because I have a sneaking suspicion that the tick is related to the timing chain tensioners. The OEM tensioners do not appear to have any sort of gasket at the mating surface. This would explain why sometimes thicker oil / higher oil pressure and flow tends to make the tick go away. It would also make sense why some engines don't tick at all, since very slight manufacturing differences may yield a better seal between the head and tensioner even without a gasket. For a while now, I have wanted to see if someone that had a really prevalent BBQ tick would try swapping the OEM tensioners out with MMR's since they have an O-ring to seal to the head. If this truly was the case as to why the BBQ tick happens, it makes sense why the tick doesn't appear to have much of any effect on longevity of the engine. The only time these engines tick is under no / very little load. As soon as you get into the throttle the tensioner acts like it should and the pump produces enough oil flow to overcome the leak.

That wouldn't explain why adding only 100 cc of Ceratec in 10 qts (1% by volume) of oil can make some ticking engines not tick any more. Still think it's a friction related phenomenon between moving parts. Ceratec is friction modifier, and other friction modifiers have a similar effect.

 

[GT Pony]

I've thought for a while that the chain tensioners might be the cause for the tick, coupled with the fact that the cam sprockets aren't actually round but slightly oblong.

Are the cam-chain cam sprockets out of round by design, or out of round due to crap manufacturing QA? Why would cam sprockets be designed to be out of round if the former?

 

[Vlad Soare]

i dont think so honestly... it still idles at 750

That's a tad higher. Normal idle is around 625 rpm.

 

[Red65]

That wouldn't explain why adding only 100 cc of Ceratec in 10 qts (1% by volume) of oil can make some ticking engines not tick any more. Still think it's a friction related phenomenon between moving parts. Ceratec is friction modifier, and other friction modifiers have a similar effect.

Plenty of people have added ceratec and observed no difference in the BBQ tick noise. Ceratec may play a role in reducing the noise in some cases, but it definitely isn't a consistent result by any means.

 

[WildHorse]

What's to understand ? It doesn't affect shit. Some of you's should listen to a supercar engine like a Lambo.. you'd run home crying from the lack of refined sounds & horrifying noises coming from it.

 

[GT Pony]

Plenty of people have added ceratec and observed no difference in the BBQ tick noise. Ceratec may play a role in reducing the noise in some cases, but it definitely isn't a consistent result by any means.

Sure ... not all cases, but in many cases Ceratec does cure the BBQ tick. Back when the Coyote came out and the BBQ tick showed up, even Ford was adding an oil friction modifier (Motorcraft XL-17) to the oil to make the tick go away.

The engines that don't react to some Ceratec may have the tick bad, and/or the noise is caused by something else going on. Some people think their noise it the BBQ tick when it's not, but rather something else that sounds like it.

 

[Red65]

Sure ... not all cases, but in many cases Ceratec does cure the BBQ tick. Back when the Coyote came out and the BBQ tick showed up, even Ford was adding an oil friction modifier (Motorcraft XL-17) to the oil to make the tick go away.

The engines that don't react to some Ceratec may have the tick bad, and/or the noise is caused by something else going on. Some people think their noise it the BBQ tick when it's not, but rather something else that sounds like it.

I'm looking at it purely from a view of what has been replaced trying to make the noise go away. Back when the concern for this noise was at an all-time high, a few forum members went as far as having the dealership go through and replace timing chains, chain guides, VCT actuators, etc and nothing seemed to make a difference. Isolating the area of the engine that the noise is coming from is hard enough, but there's only so many noises that groups of parts like the rotating assembly can make without causing longevity issues. At one point, they wanted to blame it on piston slap due to the coyote's fairly short piston overall and skirt height, but the problem is it doesn't act like piston slap (at least in the Gen 1 and Gen 2 engines) and it doesn't sound like it either. It honestly has to come down to something in the timing chain area. If it were due to the fact that the ford chain tensioners do not have a gasket to prevent oil leak down, having a dealership replace it with OEM units would most likely yield no change. My point still stands, I will consider the tensioners as the possible culprit until someone does a direct A to B test using tensioners with a gasket of some sort resulting in the tick still being present afterwards.

 

[GT Pony]

I'm looking at it purely from a view of what has been replaced trying to make the noise go away. Back when the concern for this noise was at an all-time high, a few forum members went as far as having the dealership go through and replace timing chains, chain guides, VCT actuators, etc and nothing seemed to make a difference. Isolating the area of the engine that the noise is coming from is hard enough, but there's only so many noises that groups of parts like the rotating assembly can make without causing longevity issues. At one point, they wanted to blame it on piston slap due to the coyote's fairly short piston overall and skirt height, but the problem is it doesn't act like piston slap (at least in the Gen 1 and Gen 2 engines) and it doesn't sound like it either. It honestly has to come down to something in the timing chain area. If it were due to the fact that the ford chain tensioners do not have a gasket to prevent oil leak down, having a dealership replace it with OEM units would most likely yield no change. My point still stands, I will consider the tensioners as the possible culprit until someone does a direct A to B test using tensioners with a gasket of some sort resulting in the tick still being present afterwards.

If the BBQ was from the cam-chains and tensioners the noise would easily be detected on front of the engine ... not down low behind the front wheels like reported by many (see videos below). And how could the sloppy cam-chain tension be explained to suddenly appear right after an oil change? Gotta look at all clues.

Besides, Ford would not say that the BBQ tick was not detrimental to engine longevity if the cam-chains were slapping all over the place. If cam chains are slapping because of inadequate tensioner performance, at some point there is going to be some wear and damage. Also, why did Ford replace shot blocks to fix the ticking if it was actually being caused by the cam-chains. I'd think Ford was smart enough during those years to know where it was coming from, and replace the rotating assembly for a reason.








Does this sound familiar?







Even if the rod side clearance is in spec but on the large side of the range, the oil friction level could cause the rods to dance left and right on the journals at low RPM enough to make a ticking noise. Reducing the friction with Ceratec or similar could effect that. Engines that don't respond to Ceratec may have too much rod side clearance. Excessive rod side clearance isn't going to cause any real issue except possible noise. Lots of info if you search around the 'net about rod side clearance.

 

[Red65]

If the BBQ was from the cam-chains and tensioners the noise would easily be detected on front of the engine ... not down low behind the front wheels like reported by many (see videos below). Besides, Ford would not say that the BBQ tick was not detrimental to engine longevity if the cam-chains were slapping all over the place. If cam chains are slapping because of inadequate tensioner performance, at some point there is going to be some wear and damage.

Does this sound familiar?

Even if the rod side clearance is in spec, the oil friction level could cause the rods to dance left and right on the journals at low RPM. Reducing the friction with Ceratec or similar could effect that. Engines that don't respond to Ceratec may have too much rod side clearance. Excessive rod side clearance isn't going to cause any real issue except possible noise. Lots of info if you search around the 'net about rod side clearance.

the noise made by the side clearance of the rods on those two videos sounds exactly like it does on countless other engines. If it was from side clearance, this noise would somewhat correlate with other engines that have excessive side clearance on the rods, but it doesn’t. Actually, that side clearance noise sounds exactly like it did when I checked the bottom end of the 302 Windsor in my 65 coupe, and it’s well within spec.

Listening for noises in an engine works best with either a steel rod to put your ear on while touching the engine itself or with an actual stethoscope. Listening for it just standing beside the car will never pin point it. You’d be surprised how many engines with noises in the top end can be heard clear as day right under the oil pan. I personally have a hard time believing that it’s excessive side clearance on the rods because in most cases, that excessive clearance would lead to bearing issues, yet there are a ton of coyotes in the 100,000-200,000 mile range that tick their hearts out like they did right after their first oil change.

At this point, I’m just going to agree to disagree

 

[GT Pony]

the noise made by the side clearance of the rods on those two videos sounds exactly like it does on countless other engines. If it was from side clearance, this noise would somewhat correlate with other engines that have excessive side clearance on the rods, but it doesn’t. Actually, that side clearance noise sounds exactly like it did when I checked the bottom end of the 302 Windsor in my 65 coupe, and it’s well within spec.

Listening for noises in an engine works best with either a steel rod to put your ear on while touching the engine itself or with an actual stethoscope. Listening for it just standing beside the car will never pin point it. You’d be surprised how many engines with noises in the top end can be heard clear as day right under the oil pan. I personally have a hard time believing that it’s excessive side clearance on the rods because in most cases, that excessive clearance would lead to bearing issues, yet there are a ton of coyotes in the 100,000-200,000 mile range that tick their hearts out like they did right after their first oil change.

At this point, I’m just going to agree to disagree

If you go search the 'net, you will find some threads on engine building forums that said they had a bottom end tick, and once they reduced the rod side clearance the ticking went away. Keep in mind that just because you can make the rods tick by hand like in those videos, it may not exhibit the same noise when the engine is running ... unless something is actually causing the rods to "dance" side to side while the engine is running. That very well could be the friction level of the oil that lubricates the rod big ends - and that's the theory on why changing the oil's friction level could be correlated to the BBQ tick.

I bet if you stethoscope a BBQ ticking engine, you will not hear it coming from the front timing chain cover, but more from the bottom rear end of the engine.

To clarify, I'm not saying the bearing clearance between the bearing and crank journal is excessive ... but the rod side clearance. Those are two entirely different things. The rods sliding side to side and contacting the crank like in the videos isn't going to cause any bearing problems ... just make noise. Also, another clue is that the BBQ tick doesn't show up right after a cold start when the oil is cold and thick, but show up after the engine warms up some (per the Ford TSB), which means the oil is thinning down as it warms up which has an effect on the ticking. Thicker oil will help cushion the impact if the rod sides are impacting the crank. The rod side clearance might get a little greater with time if the side of the rods experience some slight wear, which would just make the ticking noise even a little worse as miles got racked up.

Yes, agree to disagree ... but if you look at all the clues (not just one), especially the clues that the ticking goes away with a very small amount of friction modifier in the oil, and then comes back with a fresh oil change, the evidence still points to the ticking noise coming from the rotating bottom end.

 

[GT Pony]

Here's one of the threads on an engine building forum I was talking about. Notice that his ticking (which he concluded was from rod side clearance) came and went with different loads on the engine. Keep in mind that there are lots of reports and videos showing the Coyote BBQ tick noise changing, or coming and going, by simply changing the engine load slightly by turning the AC system on and off.

https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/rod-side-clearances.150914/#post-1048888

 

[WildHorse]

My point still stands, I will consider the tensioners as the possible culprit until someone does a direct A to B test using tensioners with a gasket of some sort resulting in the tick still being present afterwards.

So take the belt off and fire it up.

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