BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[accel]

Ok, a lot of those who are affected (me included) report hearing it with passenger window down and having some sound reflecting obstacle on the right.

So why on the right side?

I mean if it was always a cylinder damage then it should not always be on the right side. It should be equally/randomly distributed between left and right sides.

If this is a road bearing, then ticking sound should be heard on either side of the car.

So for those with ticking sound being prominent on the passenger side it could be something on the right side of the engine, possibly close to the wheel fender.

A pulley? Some right-side accessory?

Arghh... would be much easier if one could control engine rpms staying by the engine bay.

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[SiMuL]

For me, and many others, it's coming from the passenger/front side of the motor, right where the cam-phasers are. This is what most people think the issue is. The fact that it usually starts shortly after an oil change, many think it's due to the direction the engine oil moves through the motor. The oil starts at the front driver's side, moves to the back driver's side, then over to the back passenger's side to the front passenger's side. The idea is that because it takes the oil a few seconds to make it through the engine, the passenger's side cam-phasers are staved of oil right after an oil change.

I took mine to the dealer shortly before my warranty was up to have them check on it. They claimed they pressurized the phasers and said they were operating within spec, that I didn't have anything to worry about.

This was a few months ago. Here lately, I don't believe I'm hearing the ticking sound anymore. I've read that it comes and goes with some engines.

 

[GT Pony]

For me, and many others, it's coming from the passenger/front side of the motor, right where the cam-phasers are. This is what most people think the issue is. The fact that it usually starts shortly after an oil change, many think it's due to the direction the engine oil moves through the motor. The oil starts at the front driver's side, moves to the back driver's side, then over to the back passenger's side to the front passenger's side. The idea is that because it takes the oil a few seconds to make it through the engine, the passenger's side cam-phasers are staved of oil right after an oil change.

Even if the phasers were starved of oil for a few seconds, they should quiet down and not tick forever after that unless they were damaged, and I can't see that happening due to an oil change.

I think there have also been reports of BBQ ticking sounding like it was on the driver's side near the rear bottom of the motor. There could be a number of things not quite right inside a motor that could sound like an abnormal ticking noise. The BBQ tick is one of the world's most unsolved mysteries.

 

[Kong76]

Driving next to a divider tonight at 1800 rpm mine was very noticeable on the driver side. Or at least that where the sound was echoing off.

 

[GT Pony]

It is also funny that owners of right hand drive s550s do not report any tick. Nearly 20,000 of us with no tick. 6,000 UK cars are supplied with 5w20 oil and the Aussies with 5w30. If the noise was coming from inside the engine we should have the tick too. What is different between LHD and RHD versions is all the plumbing external to the block, I suspect a pipe of somesort tapping something it shouldn't.

Do you belong to any EU/UK based S550 Mustang chat boards with lots of members? And there is nobody at all with a RH drive Mustang that has reported an engine tick?

What tells me the ticking is caused by something inside the motor is the guys who added the engine treatment, and the ticking disappeared almost instantly.

 

[TheLion]

Cam phasors on the 2nd Gen 5.0's are mid-lock. They fail to their mid point of adjustment when there is no oil pressure. There should be no ticking from cam phasors even if they are starved of oil. I thought at one point it was phasor tick, but after doing some research on the mid-lock phasors I've come to the conclusion that is unlikely. On the 1st gen 5.0 (2011-2014) sure, they did not have mid-lock phasors and would just rotate back and fourth if they lost oil pressure, making a loud ticking sound, but the newer mid-locks fail to the mid-point. The engine will run, but you will have reduced power since you loose valve timing adjustment.

Here's a list of known theories that I know of:

1. Big end rod side to side clearance which could allow the rod to wander back and fourth across the crank more than it should and smack the bearing guides / stops on the crank, however we have yet to have a single short block replaced where anything was reported out of spec in this area. At this point it's only a theory based on a single you-tube video of some unknown amount of play and issues other engine's have had (not 5.0's). It's a possibility, but unproven at this point.

2. Out of round cylinders which seems to be by the far the most common actual diagnosis once the short block is replaced, we have photos of severe piston scoring etc. to prove this from several GT owners. This issue explains why most of these engines run fine other than the noise, making the diagnosis somewhat difficult since there is no CEL and they often pass leak down.

Due to the bore being out of spec, the piston has excessive movement. I'm theorizing that since the piston rings are designed to expand when pressurized and relatively new, so they should have high elasticity and material thickness, they are able to expand enough to soak up the slight tolerance error and things physically work fine for a while. However the skirt coatings are going to wear down very rapidly as there's excessive movement and the problem will get worse over tens of thousands of miles. There's almost always severe scoring of the cylinder walls with this issue and usually a bore scope is enough to find it.

3. Rod bearing issue aka spun bearings. There have been one or two confirmed spun rod bearings, but seems to be pretty rare occurrence over all. The noise is very similar, but I'd say it's more of a sharp "tap tap tap" than "tick tick tick" sound, but it can be intermittent in lower RPM range. Different tone, but could easily be mistaken for the BBQ tick.

4. Timing chain rattle, another theory based on some issues with the Ecoboost V6's in the F-150's. Interestingly that issue was never prevalent in the Taurus SHO with the same engine, to be sure the SHO variant was not completely identical in tuning and even all it's hardware as the F-150 variant, but they do share quite a few common parts just like the F-150 5.0's and the Mustang GT 5.0's. I believe Ford eventually sorted it out and revised the timing chain guides and went with purely hydraulic tensioners rather than ratcheting tensioners. I believe the 2nd Gen 5.0 in the GT uses purely hydraulic guide tensioners as well.

There are a few F-150's with out of round cylinders too. I say a few because Ford sold about 600,000 V8 F-150's from 2015-2017 alone, so even if there were 1,000 of them on the forums (which there is NOT) with that issue, that's a 0.16% failure rate...Ford was at first replacing the long block, then started just replacing the short blocks. There have been four revisions of the block according to what I've found on the F-150 forums. I'm not suggesting all revisions are necessarily design changes, it may be manufacturing changes for cost / reliability of production etc. But there could be some design tweaks as well. I'm not sure if this is related to the GT 5.0 issues as it's not the same engine internally, but they do share the same block and I THINK they share the same crank.

I've had a cold start rattle in my GT that has been persistent (done it off and on since I bought the car with just 5,600 miles on it) but inconsistent (some times it does it, other times not so much). The first time I step on the gas I get a loud metallic rattle, quite loud, much louder than the "starting from a stop by a wall tick" it also does some times. It only does it the first time I let out the clutch or the first time I shift from 1-2, never seems to do it again after that. So I'm not 100% sure at this point if it's engine related or even harmful. I don't think it's piston slap, it has a very different tone and sound to it, piston slap is usually either a deeper knock or defined tick type of sound depending how much is occuring and at what RPM. Just something to note.

The 5.0 in the GT is not the only Ford NA V8 engine with the BBQ ticking noise either. Example of the Ford 6.2L Gas engine BBQ Tick:

So it's not just a Coyote 5.0 phenomenon, the 6.2L shares the same noise and I"m not ware of any substantial failure rates of that engine either. I've seen reports of 6.2's will over 100k and no issues other than that noise. Just another data point.

 

[scotty]

I'd say I hear mine more on the passenger side... but can also hear it if there is a wall on the drivers side reflecting sound - same as a lot of others.

 

[TheLion]

@JGonvardi - getting a short block replacement, tech suspects cylinders 2 and 3. Runs Amsoil Signature Series 5W-20 and Wix filter. Noise started after 40k+ miles.
@rvlyssup - BBQ Tick even before first oil change, started running 5W-30 and the noise went away. Recently returned to 5W-20 and the noise has not returned thus far, 16k+ miles
@accel - BBQ Tick only when cold, no ticking at idle, only when accelerating slowly (light load, 1k-2k rpm) in 1st or 2nd or in neutral at 1750 rpm. Sound is only really audible with windows down from passenger side when next to a barrier. So far Ceratec has eliminated the sound (used about 1/2 bottle). Unkown mileage.
@kenand1988 - Very pronounced ticking noise at idle. Getting new short block. Car was purchased used. Compression test showed 0% loss and couldn't find any scoring either. Locked out phasors and no change. Noise is strongest on the passenger side near the manifold. Techs found NOTHING out of tolerance on the bottom end, no abnormal wear on the bearings, crank, pistons or cylinder walls. 29k miles.
@Catbus - Intermittent ticking started just after an oil change around 35k miles. No definitive diagnosis yet. Classic BBQ tick at idle. Stock engine. Unknown mileage.
@CEHollier - BBQ tick started around 28k after an oil change. Note he is tuned for E85 with an aggressive after market tune (Lund) and stated there was a diagnosis of detonation issues resulting in cylinder wall damage. This is not a Ford failure but a Lund failure. Lucked out and is getting a new short block anyway...lucky dog!
@Neuromancer - Classic BBQ tick in his 2018 3rd Gen 5.0 GT. Dealer claims the sound is normal. Uknown mileage.
@Enzo - Classic BBQ tick in his 2016 GT PP. New short block. "Crankshaft had double the clearance". But there's a lot of clearances on the crank, so is it side to side or rod bearing or main bearing? Unknown mileage.
@Captain Trips - BBQ like ticking noise since day 1. Occurs under part throttle, up to about 2,000 RPM at lighter loads or when under no load out of gear. Uses OE filter and Penzoil Platinum 5W-20. Blackstone analysis on every oil change comes back pristine. Meaning there's no abnormal metal on metal contact resulting in wear at all. Motor is silent at idle and higher RPMs as well. 20 psi oil pressure at idle, 80 psi at full rev. Doesn't consume any abnormal amount of oil either, catch can has a consistent amount of oil over constant intervals. Sound has not gotten any worse or better. It's just there. Unknown mileage.
@DCC - Reported that his father's Boss 302 developted a tick at 6,400 miles immediately following an oil change using MC 5W-50. Tick would go away after some driving and heat cycles. Dealer ended up replacing the engine. Just 400 miles on the new engine in the spring after an oil change again, MC 5W-50, it began making the same ticking noise. At SEMA they ran into Lake Speed Jr. of Joe Gibbs - Driven Oils and he knew of the issue. He suspected the issue was with the oil's additive packages rather than viscosity. They switched to Driven 5W-50 and have had no issue since including a drive from Georgia to Carlisle PA.
@drumstick - 2018 GT with 5,521 miles. Mild tick at idle, but it's not erratic like BBQ tick. Sounds more like typical valve train noise.
@Diocletian - 2018 GT Premium A10, 4,400 miles. Same as @drumstick.
@EgDude - 2016 GT, noise started roughly 5,000 miles. No noise at idle or when coasting in neutral. Only under light load.
@ForYourOwnGood - 2017 GT. Same ticking behavior as @Captain Trips. 20k miles and running strong.
@Monopoly - 2017 GT. Same ticking behavior as @Captain Trips. Has at least 10k miles on it.
@BurnsS550 - 2015 GT PP. Tifcks from behind the fender on cold start. Ticks in rythm with the motor (this does NOT sound like BBQ tick, which is usually somewhat erratic). Unkown mileage.
@mellow_yellow - 2017 GT PP. Ticking noise, brought into dealer, replacing the short block. Appears to be a brand new car from the posts. Mileage unknown.
@strike-eagle - 2017 GT Base. Very pronounced ticking noise. Intensity and frequency of noise increases drastically with RPM. (Note, I suspect this might be a rod bearing or piston, pretty bad). I don't believe this to be "classic BBQ ticking" and is reminiscent of another car with a diagnosed spun bearing. 4,500 miles, noise started around 1,000 miles. Is getting a whole new long block instead of the usual short block. Suspected source is from cylinders 2 and 3
@TJusmc - 2017 GT with CAT delete, CAI, tune. BBQ tick when AC is on or under light load. Factory filter and MC 5W-20 full synthetic oil. Unknown mileage.
@astolt12 - 2017 GT PP. BBQ tick after first oil change. Seems to occur mostly in reverse going up-hill but no under load. Also occurs at idle in neutral. Removed Ford Performance x-pipe, no change. 2,500 miles. Changed oil to 0W-40 at 4,500 miles with Penzoil Ultra Platinum. No ticking after 0W-40. Also makes a "phfuffing sound at idle some times". Changed oil back to 5W-20, BBQ ticking returned. Eventually got a new short block. Found NOTHING out of spec with cam shaft, pistons or metal deposits in the oil. Likely there was nothing wrong with this engine. Ticking started back up with a brand new short block and the phfuffing sound. Ford Engineering reported that the failure rate of the 5.0 is less than 0.5%. Finally got to directly speak with a Ford Field Engineer who suggested XL-17 or carbon powder to thicken the oil that would resolve the issue (note the field engineer drove a black 2015 PP GT for what it's worth). Later the dealer received a call that the sound is allegedly due to cavitation of oil between the crank and block. Eventually received a whole new long block (second replacement)
@Miastroyoda - 2011 F350 Power Stroke Diesel. Classic typewriter tick after oil change every time. Normal occurrence and no drive ability issues. Thought it worth mentioning.
@Ruby305GT - 2015 GT Premium - about 300 miles after first oil change a faint tick. But lost about a quart over the next 2,500 miles. MC 5W-20 full synthetic made the noise worse, not better next oil change at dealer.
@MikeyPee - 2015 GT PP with 2.8" Paxton Super charger - ticked for the first 5k miles. Currently at 21k and no issues. Runs PUP 5W-30.
@StangMan04 - 2013 GT. Ticking started when switching to Amsoil oil and filter from Mobil 1. Car got rear ended and was replaced with 2016 GT. Noted that there are quite a few 2011-2014 5.0's with the ticking but no drive ability issues.
@ridenfish39 - 2012 GT that burned 1 quart of oil ever 1,000 miles for 44k miles of ownership. Tried Castrol High Mileage 5W-30 at 35k miles, began ticking immediately. Currently owns a 2015 GT PP, no known issues.
@highvoltage - 2016 PP GT. Ticking started after oil change to Amsoil Sig. 17k miles. Ran penzoil platinum before with OE filter. But ticking went away after 500 miles on the new oil.
@AmnScott - 2017 PP GT. Ticking started after first oil change. Then went away 500 miles on the oil. 20k miles later and ticking is back.
@Kong76 - 2016 GT. Ticking at 1,200 miles. Went way but came back at 15k oil change. Worse with the AC on.
@keltymd - Currently runs a 2017 GT PP. First GT had ticking after first oil change. Did engine tear down and found pitting and blueing on the cylinder walls. New short block and car was bought back.
@JuRuKi - 2016 GT PP. Ticking started at 12k after oil change. OP is not entirely sure if it's BBQ tick or not however.
@usgiorgi - BBQ ticking started around first oil change.
@Oscifer - BBQ ticking sound, but increases in intensity and severity with RPM unlike classic BBQ tick. Started around 2,000 miles. Changed oil at 3,400 miles and became much more noticeable. Dealer reported the found Rod Bearing and Cylinder Wall damage. New short block at 3,800 miles. Blackstone UOI at 3,391 miles reports good (not sure if this was on the original short block or the new one).
@hipporo - 2017 GT. Reports a tick (clanking) noise from under the car while driving. Happens at very slow speed. No noise while idling (Note: may not be BBQ tick). only happens during cold start driving. Cannot hear it when windows are up, only when by a wall or in a garage. Unknown mileage.
@FRANKENSTANG - 2016 GT Premium. Ticking or clicking noise around 1500-2500 rpm. 10k miles. Mostly stock.
@baja695 - 2017 GT. Ticking occurs when AC turns on. Ticks when i 1st or reverse. May not be BBQ tick. 11k miles.
@Chris5.0coyote - 2018 GT. Very strong BBQ ticking noise, increases in severity with RPM. Drive ability issues such as surging power. Occured before first oil change at 3,600 miles. This may be a cylinder issue.
@ponyv6 - 2018 GT. BBQ Ticking noise that increases in severity with RPM. This may be a cylinder issue.
@NoVaGT - 2016 GT PP. BBQ ticking under light load, low RPM when next to a sound barrier. Also occured at idle when freely revving. Sound increases in frequency with RPM. OP report sound went away eventually.
@Rocketman - 2017 GT PP. Uses Mobil 1 EP with FL500-S OE filter. OCI every 5k miles. Most noticeable day of oil change but lessens with mileage. Can occasionally hear it when driving next to a car with windows down.
@HermanGerman - 2018 GT 10A. BBQ like ticking. Reports going to the dealer in Berlin Germany, starting a brand new GT and same noise. Noted a service builtin for 6.7L Power Stroke Diesel type writer tick.
@offroadkarter - 2016 GT PP. BBQ tick. Oil changed 900 miles ago and ticking started. Car at 11,900 miles approx. Only mod is JLT catch can.
@mvfjet - 2018 GT PP2. BBQ tick after being driven and coming to a stop.
@GodsWarrior93 - 2017 GT. Ticking when driving next to a wall at low speeds or in a parking garage. Unknown mileage.
@ultrahax - 2017 GT Preminum. Misfire code on cylinder 8. Noticed ticking when driving next to a sound barrier. Unknown mileage.
@Unadilla248 - 2016 GT. Ticking. 15k miles on the engine. 4,300 miles on the oil.
@michail71 - 2018 GT A10. Random BBQ like ticking. Unknown mileage.
@bl4d3runn3r - BBQ ticking. Random in frequency. Mostly during driving in 1500-2000 rpm range. Used Liquid Moly Ceratec and ticking is resolved.
@scotty - 2017 GT. BBQ ticking. Random in frequency. Fairly pronounced. Since first oil change at 8,000 kilometers. Only happens under light throttle in the 1500-2000 rpm range. Car has now been super charged since 20,000 kilometers (Rousch). Now has 40,000 kilometers on it. Doesn't always do it all the time either. Intermittent occurrence. Gets louder after oil change but then quiets down as mileage piles on.
@ValidusTalon - 2017 GT PP. Classic BBQ Tick. Used Lidqui Moly and so far as eliminated the noise.
@barron64 - 2018 GT PP. BBQ tick around 2,000 miles. Currently at 3,200 miles on factory oil fill. Noted the MX-5 Miata's had lifter tick noise (very common) and it was resolved by oil treatment.
@gmupatriot - 2018 GT. Slight ticking above 1200 RPM. 13,000 miles on the car.
@TheLion - 2016 PP GT. BBQ Ticking under light acceleration mostly in the 1500-2500 RPM range from a stop. Does not do it while crusing, even in higher gears, purposefully lugging the engine. Tried started with the e-brake on as well, doesn't do it. Does not do it at idle either or when freely revving the engine. First oil change at 5,600 miles by dealer. OE filter and oil. Second oil change at 10k miles, OE filter and PUP 5W-20. Third oil change at 15k miles. OE filter and oil. Forth oil change at 20k miles. Mobil 1 and OE filter. Noticed BBQ ticking is louder with both synthetic oils, almost non-existent. Noise also dies down in intensity slowly as mileage increases on the oil. Absolutely no drive ability issues. Power Pack 2 since 17k miles. Catch can contents are consistent. Runs like a scalded dog and I frequently do "back country" road course, holding above 4k rpm for 10~15 minutes at a time, brake, gas, brake, gas...you know, road course driving which generates maximum heat and is sustained abuse. All engine noises obviously get more pronounced when the oil is hot.

 

[TheLion]

I post a lot. Get over it.

 

[TheLion]

And note that only a scant few on that list have any drive ability issues. Even of the ones who had short blocks replaced, several of them had no functional issues with the car. No CEL's, no abnormal oil consumption, no abnormal UOI's. No suity exhaust. Makes good power, no fuel mileage issues. There's what? Maybe 3-5 on the list with real problems?

 

[GT Pony]

2. Out of round cylinders which seems to be by the far the most common actual diagnosis once the short block is replaced, we have photos of severe piston scoring etc. to prove this from several GT owners. This issue explains why most of these engines run fine other than the noise, making the diagnosis somewhat difficult since there is no CEL and they often pass leak down.

From what I've read it seems scored cylinders were only found on 2018s that had the "2200 RPM rattle", which sounds like a different issue than the BBQ Tick.

I'd think engines with out of round and scored cylinders would burn a lot more oil than normal, and the spark plug in those cylinders would show signs of oil burning.

 

[GT Pony]

And note that only a scant few on that list have any drive ability issues. Even of the ones who had short blocks replaced, several of them had no functional issues with the car. No CEL's, no abnormal oil consumption, no abnormal UOI's. No suity exhaust. Makes good power, no fuel mileage issues. There's what? Maybe 3-5 on the list with real problems?

Excessive rod side clearance will not affect the performance of the engine or cause any oil burning - only possibly cause ticking noise if really excessive.

 

[TheLion]

I agree. It's interesting that only one or two first gen S550's had short blocks replaced did have scoring. There was one with a rod bearing and cylinder scoring (both) found on the short block. But even of those with short blocks replaced, the techs found no signs of anything wrong in most cases. Tolerances were all ok. There's maybe 3 2nd Gen 5.0's on the list with actual diagnosed issues.

Interstingly, there's a super charge 5.0 that had the tick since 8,000 kilometers. He super charged it at 20,000 kilometers. Now has 40,000 kilometers on it. Ticks but runs great. Scotty I think it was. I think the Gibbs oil guy was on to something. The issue with with modern oil additive packages and how they dampen sound or not dampen it. Back that up by astolts Ford Field rep that even drove a PP GT as his own car who recommended either XL--17 or Carbon Powder.

Look at the results of those using Ceratec, it's a carbon powder additive. I'd stay away from too much zinc due to catalyst damage, but if your off-road (no cats) or you don't care then zinc away. If it ever bothers me enough or gets loud enough I may try the Ceratec. But so far it's not enough to be an issue. Going back to MC 5W-20 also lessens it quite a bit until it's "just barely" audible on the hot days.

But I can definitely tell the engine revs more freely with both synthetics I've tried (PUP and Mobil 1), so I'll probably stick with syns. Still running FL500-S OE filters though. And both synthetics meet the Ford spec. Since I'm covered under warranty I'm not too worried and I think that list above gives us a pretty darn good picture of this issue.

 

[TheLion]

From what I've read it seems scored cylinders were only found on 2018s that had the "2200 RPM rattle", which sounds like a different issue than the BBQ Tick.

I'd think engines with out of round and scored cylinders would burn a lot more oil than normal, and the spark plug in those cylinders would show signs of oil burning.

Your right on the out of round being 2018's. But there are a few first gen S550's on the list with short block replacements that had cylinder scoring. Maybe 2-3. 95% of the BBQ ticks are normal. Oil additive packages, environment and individual engine tolerance stack-ups all affect how much. So do people's own hearing. Some of us hear better than others.

Sounds to me that if you don't have any drive ability issues, there's a really good chance there's nothing wrong. I'm guessing most GT owners actually do have that noise and just can't hear it or don't pay enough attention. My wife didn't notice it on my car until I reproduced that specific case and quieted everything down. Nor has any passenger ever noticed it. But I did because I'm particular.

And it seems even a small amount of Ceratec helps quite a bit. So maybe running 1/2 or even 1/3 down to 1/4 might be enough to do the trick if it's bothersome enough. As long as it doesn't cause issues with the cats. But ceramic powders do thicken the oil, that's why.

@Astolt ran 0W-40 and his ticking went away completely. Then went back to 5W-20 and it came right back. So we finally have a firing solution and at least some understanding.

 

[kenand1988]

I agree. It's interesting that only one or two first gen S550's had short blocks replaced did have scoring. There was one with a rod bearing and cylinder scoring (both) found on the short block. But even of those with short blocks replaced, the techs found no signs of anything wrong in most cases. Tolerances were all ok. There's maybe 3 2nd Gen 5.0's on the list with actual diagnosed issues.

Interstingly, there's a super charge 5.0 that had the tick since 8,000 kilometers. He super charged it at 20,000 kilometers. Now has 40,000 kilometers on it. Ticks but runs great. Scotty I think it was. I think the Gibbs oil guy was on to something. The issue with with modern oil additive packages and how they dampen sound or not dampen it. Back that up by astolts Ford Field rep that even drove a PP GT as his own car who recommended either XL--17 or Carbon Powder.

Look at the results of those using Ceratec, it's a carbon powder additive. I'd stay away from too much zinc due to catalyst damage, but if your off-road (no cats) or you don't care then zinc away. If it ever bothers me enough or gets loud enough I may try the Ceratec. But so far it's not enough to be an issue. Going back to MC 5W-20 also lessens it quite a bit until it's "just barely" audible on the hot days.

But I can definitely tell the engine revs more freely with both synthetics I've tried (PUP and Mobil 1), so I'll probably stick with syns. Still running FL500-S OE filters though. And both synthetics meet the Ford spec. Since I'm covered under warranty I'm not too worried and I think that list above gives us a pretty darn good picture of this issue.

Keep in mind on my car, the dealer said they found scoring on cylinder #3 but that was just to get Ford to approve the short block. They told me they had to put something. SO in some cases I suspect the dealers aren't actually finding any damage and are just telling the customer they found something so they can get it all approved.

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