Fuel System Mods for E85

[SheepDog]

So if my available fuel is advertised at E51-83, would tuners at least be able to give me like an E50 tune if I did the injectors / rails / return system they want?

You need to test the fuel several times at the station or brand of station that you want to use, then you can determine what ethanol content (Stoichiometric ratio) to target in the tune. Here in CO anyway, all of the pumps say "E85" but there is also a placard that says 51-83% ethanol. However, one brand that has a ton of stations that carriers "E85" (Maverick) consistently tests at 67% ethanol. The other brand here always tests at 75%.

The easy button for testing is to incorporate a Fuel-It Ethanol content analyzer into your build, but that obviously adds to the cost. The cheap way is to get an Ethanol test kit, but then you need to fill a test tube with water and fuel while at the gas station, and then dispose of that test.

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[robvas]

Here's my issue with a BAP. The little control knob (if equipped).

That little can break, get brushed away, turned, etc. Heck someone at a car show could fuck with it if they wanted to.

Had the same thing happen a very long time ago on a Fox body, MSD timing knob and it basically got turned off and cost me a motor.

Some of the units seem to have a little dial in the BAP itself like a stereo amp gain knob. That seems better, less likely to be misadjusted.

 

[engineermike]

@robvas I wouldn't like that either. But all the modern ones either don't have a knob (Vortech, Lethal, etc) or they're built into the box (JMS) that's hopefully hidden out of the way.

 

[J17GT]

New website idea: www.engineermikeisthefuelguy.com

ok, I’ll see myself out.

 

[NGOT8R]

I have the knob with my JMS BAP. It’s in the glove compartment. No one goes in there but me. It’s been a while since I’ve made any adjustments to the BAP, but I believe you can even lock the setting.

 

[engineermike]

I just set my JMS up to run constant 22v. Problems solved. Controls much better that way anyway.

 

[cbrtrx]

On a gen 3 so much more can be done but the mainstream tuner isn't going to offer that and I can understand why.

People need to realize that these mainstream tuners do the bare minimum possible. The less they change the easy for them. It's just buisness for them and everyone gets the same cookie cutter tune. If customers were educated enough to see what actually went into their tunes they wouldn't be praising their tuners so much.

 

[Mikepol2]

If customers were educated enough to see what actually went into their tunes they wouldn't be praising their tuners so much.

Even if we saw the tune and realized it was cookie cutter, our options are limited. Most people don’t have the equipment and knowledge to do our own tune, and this shit ain’t an oil change. Potential for big buck damage or poor driveability. Easier and safer to just bite the bullet and piggyback onto other folks who have gotten positive (even if not optimal) results. I’m not taking my car to some local hack to be his guinea pig.

 

[cbrtrx]

Even if we saw the tune and realized it was cookie cutter, our options are limited. Most people don’t have the equipment and knowledge to do our own tune, and this shit ain’t an oil change. Potential for big buck damage or poor driveability. Easier and safer to just bite the bullet and piggyback onto other folks who have gotten positive (even if not optimal) results. I’m not taking my car to some local hack to be his guinea pig.

Totally understandable and that is why the big tuners will stay in buisness and also keep offering the bare minimum.

I learned very early on if you want something done right you have to do it yourself. I've learned to do every aspect of an automobile myself. I don't have to rely on anyone. I also realize though that is not for everyone.

 

[K4fxd]

This means that unless you develop an air leak or fail an O2 sensor within the first 10 minutes after a refuel, the diagnostics still work. I think it was @K4fxd that inadvertently tested this.

Yes, I tested this and the car still locked into the correct ethanol content. This was a fill from 93 to E85 and I had a massive vacuum leak from the PCV valve.

- The only "vulnerable" time is when switching from E85 to gasoline, if you were to floor it right when you exit the gas station and the gasoline reaches the engine when you're still running high timing at WOT.

Actually the only vulnerable time is if you fill the tank while the engine is running. The system will reset everytime you add enough fuel to trigger a learn. The reset will not happen if the engine is running.

The above has been my experience trying to make the system fail.

 

[robvas]

@robvas I wouldn't like that either. But all the modern ones either don't have a knob (Vortech, Lethal, etc) or they're built into the box (JMS) that's hopefully hidden out of the way.

I should figure out how to hot wire it. I noticed my AFR was creeping to 0.85 over 6700 rpm instead of 0.79-80 and sure enough the knob got moved down to zero.

 

[cbrtrx]

I should figure out how to hot wire it. I noticed my AFR was creeping to 0.85 over 6700 rpm instead of 0.79-80 and sure enough the knob got moved down to zero.

Way back in 2003 I had an 03 cobra with a kenne bell boost a pump with the knob, I'd always check the setting though before going wot. I believe you could just set it up for full on though by splicing in or grounding one of the wires. I liked the knob because I would spray different amounts of nitrous and I could fine tune it in with a few settings on the knob. Maybe you can check the resistance at its setting then just use a resistor instead of the knob if there isn't an easy way.

 

[KPM Fuel Systems]

I messaged Wengerd saying that it looks like returnless systems have a lot of advantages over the Fore / Arcane return systems he recommended to me, and did he have any experience tuning returnless, no response yet.

Also messaged both DW and Fore asking for recommendations for a setup in case Wengerd will only tune for return systems but no response yet there either.

Even if I don't track it the benefits of E85 seem like it's worth pursuing. Loved it when I was NA. Hard to imagine there are no 8 psi ESS Gen 3's successfully running returnless flex fuel.

As most modern performance vehicles have returnless fuel systems , many tuners are very accustomed to calibrating them as a preferred method..
Wengerd has easily tuned several vehicles with the KPM direct supply system (returnless).
The tuning calibratiions for a direct system are simpler and follow the same engineering logic as factory direct systems. There is no fudging (wanting a better term)of the calibration to make it run a return style system it wasn't designed for.
For the KPM800 -1000 HP systems, there a no changes required to the OE fuel system calibrations .
For the KPM1500-2700 HP systems there are minor base adjustments to overcome the factory limitations and are detailed in the instructions . Thereafter no changes are required to the OE fuel system calibration .
If you are using larger injectors, you will only need accurate injector data to be input as supplied by a reputable injector company.
Simply fit the KPM fuel module, and calibrate the vehicle as required for the power output.
It makes no difference to the KPM fuel system or calibration if the vehicle is an N/A or forced induction.
This means that accurate and correct calibrations methods are easily made to cater for each individual set-up and power level.
KPM Fuel Systems have our own calibration technicians and facilities and are always working with workshops to always offer any advice as we can help with.

 

[Rolls]

Reached out to Juggernaut who mentioned that in addition to injectors, a return fuel system and rails for E85, there is even MORE required for flex fuel… plug and play CANBUS kit with AVID and PCMTEC custom operating system. This is escalating quickly…

I really am starting to miss my $600 Livernois NA flex tune.

You can run it returnless depending on your power level. It all comes down to the tuner and power levels.

 

[Mikepol2]

As most modern performance vehicles have returnless fuel systems , many tuners are very accustomed to calibrating them as a preferred method..
Wengerd has easily tuned several vehicles with the KPM direct supply system (returnless).
The tuning calibratiions for a direct system are simpler and follow the same engineering logic as factory direct systems. There is no fudging (wanting a better term)of the calibration to make it run a return style system it wasn't designed for.
For the KPM800 -1000 HP systems, there a no changes required to the OE fuel system calibrations .
For the KPM1500-2700 HP systems there are minor base adjustments to overcome the factory limitations and are detailed in the instructions . Thereafter no changes are required to the OE fuel system calibration .
If you are using larger injectors, you will only need accurate injector data to be input as supplied by a reputable injector company.
Simply fit the KPM fuel module, and calibrate the vehicle as required for the power output.
It makes no difference to the KPM fuel system or calibration if the vehicle is an N/A or forced induction.
This means that accurate and correct calibrations methods are easily made to cater for each individual set-up and power level.
KPM Fuel Systems have our own calibration technicians and facilities and are always working with workshops to always offer any advice as we can help with.

Confusing to hear tuners and my ESS guy saying I need a return system and other members and you folks saying I don’t. Wish I was smart enough to figure it all out.

Ideally I’d go to the flex pump and fill up like I was able to do with my NA tune. The tuning device was pretty consistently reading E70 at the three stations I was able to get it from. No testing or ordering personal fuel supplies to keep in my garage.

Sounds like I should be around 680-ish at the wheels now, wonder what kind of power E70 would give.

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