Do you regret choosing your power adder?

[engineermike]

im claiming ess will beat whipple in heat
As in, auto 800hp vs 800 hp, ess will out run a whipple due to heat loss from whipple at the top end of the run

Multiple data sets say otherwise.

Why they get good logs for whipple is up for debate, but the supercharger itself speaking centri beats pd for heat

Both superchargers are similar efficiencies and, therefore, produce similar heat over and above heat of compression.

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[engineermike]

Im sorry but are you claiming “boost is boost” so tunes for any boost should be the same???

a tuner doesnt tune based off of a ait brother, he tunes off of more variables than i can list off the top of my head

a pd and centri get tuned differently due to first most, different power/boost bands

Ait is one of the more minor factors to be changing tunes for. Lets start with the torque difference and boost difference from 1000 rpm to 6000rpm, which is night and day for centri vs pd

Care to explain more about how you *think* this works?

 

[engineermike]

This is just wildly presumptive from a number of standpoints. First of all, what maximizes a vehicle's acceleration is area under the torque curve. Then further, area under each gear change for torque.

And you start off apples/oranges. Just because a centri peaks at 800 hp, doesn't mean the area under it's curves are equivalent.

You're better off trying to compare comparable airflow/boost. But as we've seen, even that's problematic because the forums are littered with dubious boost pressure claims from ESS nutswingers and stakeholders.

And we haven't even gotten into what type of setup accompanies each, manual? A10? T400?

You've been around the moon and back trying to iceskate uphill against others who have shown real data that suggests this "heat" advantage you're claiming is either non-existent or most likely a non-factor. (for a single cold pull).

For auto x and circuit racing, it's largely accepted that a PD with it's heat exchanger is less preferable to a centri setup, but again, with the right supporting cooling mods, Ford has demonstrated that they can make a roots blower car that will run hard continuously basically until you run out of fuel.

The ESS is formidable for what it is, a value brand/option. But arguing it's better for heat and then moving the goal posts to keep your assertion in the face of data, then discounting the data because you don't like the sensor location, it's starting to become obvious you have your mind made up and there's no changing it.

I'm one of the most unbiased people in the mustang community when it comes to modifications, I really have no hard core loyalties. I would say that unless you're tracking your vehicle for extended sessions or you're on some hardcore fuel limitations, the issue is a non factor anyway (IAT's aren't a problem for whipples on E85). Even then it's being generous assuming that a whipple has to labor at the same levels of a centri setup to produce the same results (many times a PD car makes enough torque to not require you run it at elevated rpms around a track if you adjust the gears).

From a cold dyno setup, at 1100 rwhp, my car never rose more than 105F for a full WOT pull in 96F ambient temps. Again, apples and oranges, the Whipple setup gets the advantage of having a giant liquid heat sink to aid it. So I guess the question becomes, when you're comparing this heat issue. Cold at the track for a single drag pass? I'd say your argument is useless. After 10 continuous rips on the highway in hot ambient temps......MAYBE, but again, that's only a real concern on 93. On E85, there's virtually NO ONE I've run into that argues they're getting timing pulled because of elevated IAT2's. The Roots and the Roush blowers with their anemic intercooler bricks and systems, yeah, it's an issue, but it's just not the myth you're claiming it to be. And I know a LOT of guys with whipple setups in South Florida.

Lots of truth in this post.

 

[Wolfys11]

Care to explain more about how you *think* this works?

What do you mean? Tuning involves a hell of a lot more important variables than just an iat tuning variable, im not a tuner but im aware of what they change

 

[engineermike]

What do you mean? Tuning involves a hell of a lot more important variables than just an iat tuning variable, im not a tuner but im aware of what they change

This is just a very deep rabbit hole I’m not sure you want to go down.

 

[Wolfys11]

This is just a very deep rabbit hole I’m not sure you want to go down.

No youre right, i have no intention of going down the rabbit hole of you telling me ait is the most important tuning parameter tuners look and adjust before any other parameters

 

[andrewtac]

No youre right, i have no intention of going down the rabbit hole of you telling me ait is the most important tuning parameter tuners look and adjust before any other parameters

He tunes his on vehicles, has tons os real world data, is a an actual practicing engineer who freely shares what he observes and learns. If you have a question about which parameters to monitor or what to tune to he probably can answer those questions as well

 

[Wolfys11]

He tunes his on vehicles, has tons os real world data, is a an actual practicing engineer who freely shares what he observes and learns. If you have a question about which parameters to monitor or what to tune to he probably can answer those questions as well

And you say i have bias…
Tuning involves a lot more than iat temps, if your both going to argue that then im jumping out of the conversation
Yes iat is a factor, but unless you run 200 deg intake temps, its quite a minor factor when compared to others

As far as his qualifications, great, congrats to being successful, and i do take his findings with great respect, but just because hes great at what he does doesnt mean his data can be wrong or his ideas

Either way, this has become more of a personal debate than anything so unless we bring new info to discuss, im over the bickering

All our power adders are great, no need to knit pick a couple hp or temp differences, choose the one that looks the prettiest to you as theyll all make you much happier than n/a

 

[andrewtac]

And you say i have bias…
Tuning involves a lot more than iat temps, if your both going to argue that then im jumping out of the conversation
Yes iat is a factor, but unless you run 200 deg intake temps, its quite a minor factor when compared to others

As far as his qualifications, great, congrats to being successful, and i do take his findings with great respect, but just because hes great at what he does doesnt mean his data can be wrong or his ideas

Either way, this has become more of a personal debate than anything so unless we bring new info to discuss, im over the bickering

All our power adders are great, no need to knit pick a couple hp or temp differences, choose the one that looks the prettiest to you as theyll all make you much happier than n/a

Only thing I am suggesting is Mike can share his knowledge. He has already discussed some very basic principles of thermo (efficiency and such) that seem to not be understood by many.

I was not arguing your confirmation bias, but sense you are defending it, I'll agree with Mike.

Did your assumptions or was it your confirmation bias that led you to believe that Mike only tunes to IATs. Again, flat out wrong assumptions and understanding.

Mike never said his data could not be wrong, that is why he is someone worth listening too. He is intelligent enough to change his mind.

I do agree power adders are great

 

[shogun32]

Either way, this has become more of a personal debate than anything

Damn it man. I was SO hoping for "pistols at dawn". (Mike already played the hamster and elderberries)

This is the Internet. Since when do we act all gentlemenly? Must be all that nitrous

 

[wingnutt]

 

[robvas]

 

[Zrussian13]

I can't go back through 26 pages of this shit but I doubt Mike ever said iats were the most important part of tuning. The discussing has been on heat soak and thermal efficiency so iats were one of the main talking points. Not the end all of tuning 101.

 

[cbrtrx]

I'm going to see what my power adder can do tonight, how about some people post up their 60 to 130 runs or 1/4 mile passes. It will give us something else to talk about.

 

[NGOT8R]

I need to stop reading this thread before I end up with a second power adder on my car.

I talked to ESS about retaining my nitrous system with their kit and they said I would be operating in uncharted territory, but recommended lowering boost a bit (which I was already aware of). If I do this, I would figure on making 700-750 hp on boost, plus the additional 150 hp with nitrous to put me around 900 hp. I should also mention that I am considering twin turbos as well (not sure whether top or bottom mount kit would be best). I like to think things through and do what will provide the most ease regarding maintenance, such as clutch, tranny and exhaust work.

I am really starting to think more about this, but do see some challenges with my current setup that I am not willing to remove or reconfigure. With that being said, I would need all piping etc. to clear these parts.

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