Fuel System Mods for E85

[SheepDog]

Quick soap box - apparently these days it’s acceptable human behavior to ignore a question if the answer is going to be uncomfortable. Wengerd did the same with me asking about returnless, people at work do it all the time, etc. Drives me INSANE. 30 years ago if someone asked you a question, you gave an answer. Now it’s cool to just let people twist in the wind. Of course, a LOT of stuff was better 30 years ago.

OK rant over. Back to wishing I could afford to run E85.

I mean honestly, prior to me having the epiphany of how to do a brushless pump setup in that attached thread, no one before figured it out. There are a few other threads on the subject, but never went anywhere - my point being that even a company like KPM wasn't considering blending the OEM PCM capability with the use of an aftermarket Brushless pump and controller. For their high HP systems, they still require running large power wires through the car, and are still using brushed fuel pumps. Their silence on the topic indicates to me, that they don't want to distract from the product they spent countless hours and dollars developing.

Im 100% confident that the combination of the DW810, and an OEM or OEM like bucket can be achieved, all with factory wiring and fuel line. Less cost, more capable, and more intelligent than anything available on the market right now. Be it Fore or KPM or any other, they don't want a cheaper solution that works better for people, they want you to buy their stuff, and the mainstream tuners are the same. I too am at the mercy of the tuning bottleneck, and @engineermike could make 2349827050291857 dollars tuning similar setups (f150's too) if he chose to, but that would be a full life change and commitment, not just a side hobby. One thing is for sure - we aren't going to spoon feed this revelation to any of the "Big Boy" tuning companies

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[robvas]

With the state Fore is in there's no better time for someone to step up.

Someone like KPM should do handholding with the big tuners or someone should offer a quality returnless system that can replace Fore, all the other systems seem to be targeting price and are lower in quality.

 

[Zrussian13]

Quick soap box - apparently these days it’s acceptable human behavior to ignore a question if the answer is going to be uncomfortable. Wengerd did the same with me asking about returnless, people at work do it all the time, etc. Drives me INSANE. 30 years ago if someone asked you a question, you gave an answer. Now it’s cool to just let people twist in the wind. Of course, a LOT of stuff was better 30 years ago.

OK rant over. Back to wishing I could afford to run E85.

What do you mean??? I thought werngard was the end all solution to ever s550 owner's tuning needs?

 

[Timbuck]

Quick soap box - apparently these days it’s acceptable human behavior to ignore a question if the answer is going to be uncomfortable. Wengerd did the same with me asking about returnless, people at work do it all the time, etc. Drives me INSANE. 30 years ago if someone asked you a question, you gave an answer. Now it’s cool to just let people twist in the wind. Of course, a LOT of stuff was better 30 years ago.

OK rant over. Back to wishing I could afford to run E85.

he is a product of his own success ATM…. With email problems.

 

[Pistol_91]

I can say the same thing about my AOL email I made 25 years ago LOL

 

[KPM Fuel Systems]

To try and address a lot of the questions and concerns raised -
KPM Fuel Systems have designed our systems to address all the following requirements

Functionality - Only system on the market that has all the advantages and operates exactly as per an OE system.
Fitment is all OE style quality and direct fit saving massive time on installation.
Easily up-gradable as needed with our direct fit ADD-ON kits.

On of the main questions is around - What extra do we need?
You receive everything you need in one direct fit kit. No extra add ons or components required to try and make the system work. NO hanger only, NO return lines, NO BAPs, No Surge tanks, NO trying to fit large fuel pumps into unsuitable standard fuel modules with only 2 venturi jets.
We totally understand that all the above is what was only availble until now however all of the above have drawbacks, which is why we have designed fuel systems that fit and integrate perfectly with your vehicle systems. They just work!

• Requires no tuning on stock OE vehicles
• Integrates 100% on all S550 and S650 Mustangs
• No fuel system calibrations required on upgraded power vehicles
• 800- 1000hp systems are Direct fit replacement ( 20 mins )
• 1500hp systems are direct fit with PWM controller and heavy gauge wiring ( 2 hour fit)
• 2200-2700 systems are direct fit ith PWM controller, heavy gauge wiring and 5/8 stainless steel quick connect fuel lines and filter. (6 hour fit)
• Incorporates 4 - 8 venturi jet pumps designed to scavenge all the fuel from both sides of the saddle tank allowing for the user to drive/race down to a near empty tank of fuel.
• Incorporates 4 venturi jet pumps to allow for increased sized pumps to be fitted into one module. Pumps cannot outrun the module scavenging .
• The 800 and 1000 module is directly controlled by the OE Fuel Pump Control Module (FPCM) meaning cool dense fuel supplied at all times.

All our KPM fuel systems are rated at horsepower at the crank on 93 pump gas.
We have been asked by many for rear wheel power . Approximates below-

KPM800

• 93 Pump gas approx. 650 rear wheel hp
• Ethanol / E85 approx. 470 rear wheel hp

KPM1000

• 93 Pump gas approx 830 rear wheel hp
• Ethanol / E85 approx 600 rear wheel hp

KPM1500

• 93 Pump gas approx 1270 rear wheel hp
• Ethanol / E85 approx 900 rear wheel hp

KPM2200

• 93 Pump gas approx 1800rear wheel hp
• Ethanol / E85 approx 1300 rear wheel hp

KPM2700

• 93 Pump gas approx 2200 rear wheel hp
• Ethanol / E85 approx 1575 rear wheel hp

In Development

- Easy fit under bonnet inline fuel filter for the 800-1500 kits.
- 1700hp up to 3000hp Brushless fuel pump systems
- Increased vehicle model range.

 

[SnowFox]

It certainly is possible. The expense for running E85 is all in the cost of the necessary components. The additional power that comes from E85, is pretty much all in the ignition timing. (the cooling effect does allow for a denser air/fuel charge, even without advancing the timing to take full advantage of the ethanol)

By the time you go through all of the trouble installing a new fuel system, and paying for an E85 tune, why would you want to kneecap the situation just to "not" make any more power?

Well I wouldn't want to go through all THAT expense like I mentioned earlier. This why I'm still on ye'ole dinosaurs poop.

I'll probably go through all that expense at some point though, I change my mind daily. And it's wonderful.

 

[SnowFox]

Quick soap box - apparently these days it’s acceptable human behavior to ignore a question if the answer is going to be uncomfortable. Wengerd did the same with me asking about returnless, people at work do it all the time, etc. Drives me INSANE. 30 years ago if someone asked you a question, you gave an answer. Now it’s cool to just let people twist in the wind. Of course, a LOT of stuff was better 30 years ago.

Because in 1995 we didn't have phones glued to our face, trying to answer Emails, texts, social media posts, phone calls ect. Significantly less questions to reply to so it was easier

Do phones even have a "busy signal" today?

In 1995 I could still say "I missed your call I wasn't home"

 

[robvas]

Because in 1995 we didn't have phones glued to our face, trying to answer Emails, texts, social media posts, phone calls ect. Significantly less questions to reply to so it was easier

Do phones even have a "busy signal" today?

In 1995 I could still say "I missed your call I wasn't home"

I can't imagine working at a shop trying to do shit and having people call all day and customers stopping by.

 

[SheepDog]

- 1700hp up to 3000hp Brushless fuel pump systems

This!

 

[SnowFox]

I can't imagine working at a shop trying to do shit and having people call all day and customers stopping by.

I can't either. Today's access we have too one another and businesses is both a blessing and a curse. But it's getting to the point of leaning more toward curse.

 

[engineermike]

Thank you, will be watching, good luck!

Brushless Fuel pump, and factory FPDM control | Page 27 | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

 

[Mikepol2]

Brushless Fuel pump, and factory FPDM control | Page 27 | 2015+ S550 Mustang Forum (GT, EcoBoost, GT350, GT500, Bullitt, Mach 1) - Mustang6G.com

Interesting! Will definitely be continuing to follow.

 

[5.0_Lojos]

This is the part that's frustrating to me....it is nice but you don't need any of that stuff to make a flex strategy work. The F150 5.0 has flex fueling from the factory. If it didn't work *very* well, then Ford wouldn't have supplied it that way year after year. Part of the problem here is that a combination of the Gen2 OS not being capable of changing spark timing as a function of learned ethanol, and Gen3 fuel line volumes defaulted to 0 lb and not editable in HPT have sent commercial tuners down the path of "it's not possible" or "not a good idea with boost". HPT also neglected to define many other flex fuel parameters, many of which affect cold starting.

The Gen3 can modulate a ton of things as a function of learned ethanol. For instance, it can vary the maximum engine load...like if it learns 10% then it can limit boost to 8 or 10 psi, but if it learns 70% it can let it go to 16 or 18 or whatever you want. It can modulate timing, of course, but also timing as a function of ethanol combined with charge temp if you like. It can even modulate GDI pressure and lambda, min lambda, torque, inferred EGT/COT trigger points, knock retard amount, GDI blend, GDI SOI, the list goes on and on. It can even change the blending curve; for instance cold fueling and spark timing can vary drastically or subtly as a function of ethanol %, and use separate blend curves. It really is amazing what Ford built into the Gen3 strategy.

I set mine up to only "switch" on the extra timing on at around 55% learned. So if it learns just 50%, I don't get the timing. You can make it ramp in between 40 and 80%, or really whatever you want.

As far as pitfalls go, most of what people are scared of is unfounded.
- If you switch from gasoline to E85 and floor it before it learns, the STFT will catch it and prevent lean running. We "accidentally" tested this.
- The LTFT are used to determine diagnostics like air leaks and bad O2 sensors. The LTFT are frozen during the learning phase and will only update once the learned ethanol % has "matured". In other words, something like an air leak will only affect LTFT when the PCM is not in ethanol learning mode. Therefore, diagnostics of an air leak or bad O2 sensor is done by LFTF out of range, which will only happen outside of the learning period. This means that unless you develop an air leak or fail an O2 sensor within the first 10 minutes after a refuel, the diagnostics still work. I think it was @K4fxd that inadvertently tested this.
- The only "vulnerable" time is when switching from E85 to gasoline, if you were to floor it right when you exit the gas station and the gasoline reaches the engine when you're still running high timing at WOT. That said, it's been my experience that a) the knock sensors will at least partially protect you in this situation, b) unless you run it *out* of fuel, the tank typically will be somewhere around E30-E40 and will still have pretty good knock suppression, c) the fuel change is more gradual than you'd think and doesn't all hit at once thus giving it a chance to learn, and d) just don't do *that* if you're running a flex tune.

That said, it is totally possible to run a full-on flex tune but have the timing change little or none as a function of ethanol. You'd be leaving up to 100 hp on the table, though, which would be hard for me to swallow.

Who are you and who do you work for? Based on your knowledge/insight I think we can all agree that we would pay for one of your custom tunes

 

[Unas2k5]

Who are you and who do you work for? Based on your knowledge/insight I think we can all agree that we would pay for one of your custom tunes

Exactly. Most of these so-called “tuners” aren’t actually tuning from scratch—they’re just making minor adjustments to base files without truly understanding what they’re changing. Their knowledge usually comes from whatever limited training they received at a company, and it shows.

But Engineer Mike? He’s on a completely different level. This guy doesn’t just adjust parameters it’s like he understands the entire architecture of the engine and ECU. It’s like he reverse-engineered the tuning process from the ground up. Nobody else on this forum, including the big names like Lund or Wingard, can hold a candle to him in a technical argument!!

If tuning was a science, @engineermike is the one who wrote the textbook !

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