BBQ Tick Solved?

[TheLion]

I just checked my old 2009 CTS-V's catch can that I took off after I totaled that car, it has just as much or more of that same gold metal.. That car had 93k miles on it and is a totally different engine so I do think the metal dust in catch cans is normal. Glad I have one though since I wouldnt want metal flakes to blow back through the engine.

CTS-V with Moroso can:

Mustang with JLT 3.0

That looks exactly like mine most of the time, I say most because the amount of "metal dust" varies from interval to interval, some times a lot other times very little. I suspect it may actually be particles of zinc from the tribofilms formed by ZDDP during operation. ZDDP tribofilms form very rapidly unlike hBN (hexagonal Boron Nitride) or MSH (Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide) tribofilms which take hundreds or even thousands of miles to fully form on all wear surfaces, BUT ZDDP tribofilms also break down farm more rapidly, so they need to be replenished after every oil change.

I'm not sure if hBN or MSH will ever fully replace ZDDP because on a new car or when ever the film needs to be replenished, you'd have to much wear that occurs in the time it takes for hBN or MSH to form over the wear surfaces, but I could see them being used in a combined formula with much lower ZDDP, just enough to protect the motor short term until hBN or MSH forms and takes over or continued to be used as a treatment along with more conventional formulas. It's truly amazing stuff, like MoS2, but without the major issues like absorbing water and changing from a ultra low friction EP additive into an abrasive grinder. MoS2 is great, expect when exposed to moisture, so it's been limited mostly to CV joint grease. Interesting how CV joints last hundreds of thousands of miles with the same or more cycles as the engine but on a single fill of grease...

I could be wrong about the "meal dust" being ZDDP, but to me that seems like the most likely source, from the EP additive in all modern oils. It's already suspended in the oil and is in micro sized particles, some visible some below what the human eye can see.

MSH is particularly interesting because Magnesium is very similar to Zinc from an atomic standpoint, both exhibiting only one normal oxidation state and the Zn2+ and Mg2+ ions are of similar atomic size. Interesting that Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide is another EP anti-wear additive like ZDDP, but is far more durable and has a vastly superior coefficient of friction (0.02~0.01 vs. about 0.06 to 0.08).

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[GT Pony]

So I completely disagree that you can push the engine into an unsafe condition by lugging when the ECU has complete control. You may see poor fuel economy and wear issues with heavy lugging over tens of thousands of miles, but an occasional 50% throttle in 6th gear to "slow pass" other cars on the highway isn't going to hurt. Heck the user manual itself is telling you to shift into 6th at 50 mph...even with my short 3.73 gearing, that's just 1500 rpm...what kind of idiot engine tuner would allow you to run timing, throttle and fuel that would throw rod bearings when they have full control over those inputs to the engine? Then have their technical writers write a user manual that tells you to run it at low RPM and offer a warranty on the car when it's going to throw rod bearings by running in a low RPM range?

What driver demands and what driver gets are some times mutually exclusive . I'll drop it, but we can agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not going to trust Ford or anyone else to "protect" my rod bearings through ECU programming if I decide to always hit WOT at 1500 RPM. It's just not a wise thing to do.

 

[Kong76]

That looks exactly like mine most of the time, I say most because the amount of "metal dust" varies from interval to interval, some times a lot other times very little. I suspect it may actually be particles of zinc from the tribofilms formed by ZDDP during operation. ZDDP tribofilms form very rapidly unlike hBN (hexagonal Boron Nitride) or MSH (Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide) tribofilms which take hundreds or even thousands of miles to fully form on all wear surfaces, BUT ZDDP tribofilms also break down farm more rapidly, so they need to be replenished after every oil change.

I'm not sure if hBN or MSH will ever fully replace ZDDP because on a new car or when ever the film needs to be replenished, you'd have to much wear that occurs in the time it takes for hBN or MSH to form over the wear surfaces, but I could see them being used in a combined formula with much lower ZDDP, just enough to protect the motor short term until hBN or MSH forms and takes over or continued to be used as a treatment along with more conventional formulas. It's truly amazing stuff, like MoS2, but without the major issues like absorbing water and changing from a ultra low friction EP additive into an abrasive grinder. MoS2 is great, expect when exposed to moisture, so it's been limited mostly to CV joint grease. Interesting how CV joints last hundreds of thousands of miles with the same or more cycles as the engine but on a single fill of grease...

I could be wrong about the "meal dust" being ZDDP, but to me that seems like the most likely source, from the EP additive in all modern oils. It's already suspended in the oil and is in micro sized particles, some visible some below what the human eye can see.

MSH is particularly interesting because Magnesium is very similar to Zinc from an atomic standpoint, both exhibiting only one normal oxidation state and the Zn2+ and Mg2+ ions are of similar atomic size. Interesting that Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide is another EP anti-wear additive like ZDDP, but is far more durable and has a vastly superior coefficient of friction (0.02~0.01 vs. about 0.06 to 0.08).

I have the same thing in my JLT, after several oil changes it's still shows up. Not as much as that but it's the same color, fine particles.

 

[OneFordGT]

This is the first “fill” in my new UPR Catch Can, meaning I haven’t emptied it. I used two different flashlights and I didn’t notice anything other than oil with a small amount of moisture in it. Just thinking that maybe since the Can itself is silver maybe that is camouflageing the shiny substance? I’ve been using Mobil 1 Full Syn 5W20 oil with Ford filter.

 

[Stormtroopin5.0]

I may agree with your theory, but only to a certain point. When I took mine out to run it hard at 3,500rpm for about 10 minutes in 3rd gear, I got home and found it wasn't making any ticking noise. It was very warm, and running perfectly. Quiet as a mouse. Maybe the thing got sealed up good and tight under all that heat. The next day, the ticking came back, though it seems to have been a little less. The only problem I can see with your theory is quite a few of these ticks have had the cylinders scoped, and they haven't found any scoring or other damage. It's a real head scratcher.

Regardless, I took it in to have the clutch checked after smelling it, and the Tech found some of the diaphragm leaf springs bent on mine. Probably from initial install, and was a matter of time before it wouldn't be engaging as well as it should. Anyway, the Tech also heard the ticking in the engine when he pulled into the garage. He is going to diagnose it further once the new clutch is installed, and everything is as it should be.

He told me flat out, Ford is "VERY AWARE" of this complaint, and it's a big discussion on the Ford Tech's forum. We don't have access to that, but Tech's all over the country are talking about it, and Ford engineers are definitely working on figuring out exactly what it is.

I truly hope that is the case. If judging by the posts on this and other mustang forums, the 18-19 cars seem to have an exacerbated case of this tick. More reason to continue driving mine until they find root cause and come up with a permanent solution.

 

[careature]

I truly hope that is the case. If judging by the posts on this and other mustang forums, the 18-19 cars seem to have an exacerbated case of this tick. More reason to continue driving mine until they find root cause and come up with a permanent solution.

Is rod / bearing part between these engines is really different?

 

[Andy13186]

This is the first “fill” in my new UPR Catch Can, meaning I haven’t emptied it. I used two different flashlights and I didn’t notice anything other than oil with a small amount of moisture in it. Just thinking that maybe since the Can itself is silver maybe that is camouflageing the shiny substance? I’ve been using Mobil 1 Full Syn 5W20 oil with Ford filter.

Interesting, yea it looks like there isnt any in there as far as I can see. Do you drive your car hard at all? I do..

The oil I used was Castrol edge full synthetic for both cars which has "liquid titanium" whatever that is.

I should be hearing from my dealer about the tapping tomorrow.

 

[Jimmy G]

Is rod / bearing part between these engines is really different?

Dunno about rods, but 2018 GT onwards crank is different, bearings are different and sump is now composite (ie: noisier).

 

[Andy13186]

Dealer is claiming they think mine is the exhaust guides..? Apparently they will be tearing it down next week. =/

 

[careature]

Dealer is claiming they think mine is the exhaust guides..? Apparently they will be tearing it down next week. =/

My dealer also "fixed" it in the exhaust first.

I picked up a car, drove it less than 20 yards to realize nothing was fixed, re entered service department two minutes after leaving it and re demoed the tick.

They spent ford money on fixing the wrong part.

Next they replaced short block.

It is working fine so far.

But in the light of "air bubble" theories I probably should had a asked for long block. I mean, bubbles might be a result of some engine part sipping air. This most likely is not the short block...

 

[Andy13186]

My dealer also "fixed" it in the exhaust first.

I picked up a car, drove it less than 20 yards to realize nothing was fixed, re entered service department two minutes after leaving it and re demoed the tick.

They spent ford money on fixing the wrong part.

Next they replaced short block.

It is working fine so far.

But in the light of "air bubble" theories I probably should had a asked for long block. I mean, bubbles might be a result of some engine part sipping air. This most likely is not the short block...

Exhaust guides in the heads? or your actual exhaust? How did they determine yours was shortblock? Borescope? Cylinder wall scoring?

 

[careature]

Exhaust guides in the heads? or your actual exhaust? How did they determine yours was shortblock? Borescope? Cylinder wall scoring?

At first they replaced some exhaust pipe on the right side. I do not remember which one and it does not matter. I did not believe that would work, but did not try to educate them as I was looking into long term repair and relationship.

Before they did the exhaust fix, they inspected cylinder walls and rod bearings. I do not know how they did it, but looks like that was visual and did not mention any measurements on the invoice. Verdict was "look normal".

After I came back with reproduction they took it back and couple of days later told me rod bearing in 4th cyl and short block arrives within several days.

I think second time they just straight contacted ford and got authorized with sb replacement as second invoice did not contain any more research.

After short block replacement engine is quiet and no tick, however, several hundred miles later I can feel a little more "metal" in overall engine sound.

Ordered Pennzoil ultra platinum 5w20 and will replace oil myself once I get it. I mean, if first oil change makes it comeback I'd like this to happen sooner than later so that I have time for more visits under warranty.

 

[Condor1970]

Dealer is claiming they think mine is the exhaust guides..? Apparently they will be tearing it down next week. =/

I mentioned this in the other thread. If you have exhaust guides that cause noise, then there is obvious clearance/wear issues. When that happens to the point of making noise, you will almost immediately start seeing smoke in the exhaust or blackened oil from all the blow by.

I'm sorry, I'm certainly no expert mechanic, but I do know some basics....what was your dealer thinking?

 

[Gearhead82]

After I came back with reproduction they took it back and couple of days later told me rod bearing in 4th cyl and short block arrives within several days.

I think in a lot of these cases where the dealership is eventually diagnosing it as a bearing failure that they’re basically just making it up to justify the short block replacement to Ford. I was a dealership mechanic at one point (now fleet mechanic) and that happened often. There’s an issue but no obvious cause, so the tech basically finds some minor flaw (or straight up makes one up) that probably isn’t the root cause but sounds good enough on paper to get the manufacture to approve the warranty work. And they don’t really care because it’s basically someone sitting at a computer at Ford, with very little technical knowledge, rubber stamping warranty work all day every day.

 

[stangman638]

Just checked my separator again, more sparkle sized bits, but a bigger piece of metal, like a think metal strip, maybe 1/8 inch long and thin.

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