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BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

GT Pony

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It obviously only affects it to a certain point. It's obviously not a miracle. I have noticed that as I add it, the ticking gets slowly better and better, until I add enough to make it basically go away in all circumstances. That doesn't mean it will work for every occasion, since it obviously only affects the oil to a certain point.
And how do you know the noise going away isn't actually because the friction level of the oil has changed? Ceratec is designed to be a friction modifier. So was Motorcraft XXL-17 an oil friction modifier, and it made the ticking go away too. The big question is why did Motorcraft stop making XL-17? Maybe they needed all of its production for the factory oil fill ... ?? lol :wink:
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Condor1970

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Here's that Corvette TSB about the bad oil pick-up O-ring causing oil aeration and resulting in engine ticking noises (cavitation ?). See attached PDF.
That's where the engine was inspected, and a problem was discovered. With the tons of engines having this tick, Ford would have issued the same TSB with the same O-ring inspection if this were the case. They're not stupid.
Btw, I actually did drain my oil right after a hard run once. Mainly because it was on the 5w20, and I wanted to see if the 5w30 made a difference. If I had a leaky pickup tube, it should have drained out like a banana smoothy. Yet, it was perfectly fine. As soon as I put in fresh oil, it ticked same as always until I added Ceratec. If it was air, then dirty used oil, and clean oil would make no difference. It would be aerating and making noise no mater how old the oil is.
 
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Condor1970

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So, it's obvious air in the oil can cause cavitation due to excessive aeration. But, this is when it gets very severe if you actually start hearing noise. This an engine damaging scenario. If Ford is adamant about it being a normal attribute of the engine, then this cavitation would logically seem to be more of an oil vapor cavitation issue, and not something caused by excessive air bubbles. One thing I found interesting, is that Anti-foaming additives are put into oil to prevent air from foaming the oil in the engine. After all, there's air everywhere, so foaming could occur at any point in theory. So, for me to make the assumption that Ceratec "might" have an anti-foaming effect due to it being a solid lubricant, is not really a giant leap. It actually kind of makes sense. But again, the affect of anti-foaming would only go to a certain point, since that's not what it's engineered for.

Ceratec by its design helps reduce surface tension between molecules to provide better lubrication between two surfaces. In doing so, it would seem that decreasing surface tension between oil and even air molecules would also help prevent formation of large bubbles on the macro level that create problems with cavitation, regardless of whether it's air or oil vapor. Basically having a similar effect of an anti-foaming agent.

Maybe XL-17, or even carbon buildup in old oil DOES HAVE some anti-foaming affect. They're all lubricants to a certain degree. However, I have never seen aerated oil come out of any of these cars.

And if it was an O-ring problem, Ford would have definitely solved the issue in MY2019 after all the complaints in 2018. Knowing what it is, they would not have not continued to make engines for hundreds of thousands of cars and trucks without pickup tube O-ring inspections. They can be pretty stupid, but not THAT stupid. Especially after putting out an SSM stating the noise is NORMAL???
 
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GT Pony

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That's where the engine was inspected, and a problem was discovered. With the tons of engines having this tick, Ford would have issued the same TSB with the same O-ring inspection if this were the case. They're not stupid.
Btw, I actually did drain my oil right after a hard run once. Mainly because it was on the 5w20, and I wanted to see if the 5w30 made a difference. If I had a leaky pickup tube,
it should have drained out like a banana smoothy. Yet, it was perfectly fine. Yet, as soon as I put in fresh oil, it ticked same as always until I added Ceratec. If it was air, then dirty used oil, and clean oil would make no difference. It would be aerating and making noise no mater how old the oil is.
There is always some level of air entrapped in oil, especially in something like an ICE where there's all kinds of motion and windage going on. Doesn't have to be visible and look like a milkshake. Maybe some Coyotes for some reason aerate the oil more than others which results in bearing cavitation and/or HLA noises. Whatever it is, it has to be something that causes the tick in one Coytoe but no tick in another Coyote. Just like in the Corvette TSB, oil aeration was the cause of those engine noises.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/255/oil-foam
 
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GT Pony

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Ceratec by its design helps reduce surface tension between molecules to provide better lubrication between two surfaces. In doing so, it would seem that decreasing surface tension between oil and even air molecules would also help prevent formation of large bubbles on the macro level that create problems with cavitation, regardless of whether it's air or oil vapor. Basically having a similar effect of an anti-foaming agent.
Please post links supporting that Ceratec reduces surface tension between molecules. The description on LiquiMoly's website says nothing about reducing surface tension.

Description
Cera Tec is a high-tech anti-wear additive, suitable for the use in motor oils as well as manual transmission fluids and compressors. Cera Tec reduces friction and wear due to ceramic compounds that are extremely heat and pressure resistant. Prevents direct metal-to-metal contact, thus increasing the engine service life. The low-friction effect reduces fuel consumption in gasoline and diesel engines.
 

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Condor1970

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As far as the 'vettes go. Those noises were causing engine damage. Those noises of bad lifters, sounds quite a bit different than the light ticking heard in the Coyote. Further indication that it was severe and causing notable damage. The ticking in Coyotes seems to have no adverse affect. Also, no TSB has been issued to look out for missing O-rings that I know of. Could be wrong though.

And yes, the whole point behind a Nano lubricant is to reduce surface tension even further than the base stock, to allow for ease of movement between molecules that protect the material. Doing so, should also help in preventing the formation of bubbles on the macro scale.
 
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GT Pony

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And yes, the whole point behind a Nano lubricant is to reduce surface tension even further than the base stock, to allow for ease of movement between molecules that protect the material. Doing so, should also help in preventing the formation of bubbles on the macro scale.
I spent some time looking for technical papers (SAE and similar) that talked about nano particles such as soot or carbon black, etc changing the cavitation sensitivity of oil in journal bearings, and found absolutely nothing associated with that. If you have links to technical information verifying the claim then I'd like to see the information. Otherwise, it's just a statement made with no backup technical information to backup the claim.

I did however find some technical information that said that nano particles such as soot, ceramic, carbon black (used in XL-17), etc act as friction modifiers. So seems once again that the engine ticking coming and going is more related to the oil friction level than oil cavitation. As we've mentioned before, it could also be a combination of parts clearances sensitive to oil friction level and oil cavitation.

Effect of Soot on Oil Friction.JPG


SAE Paper 2015-01-2033.JPG


I also found a study that talked about ticking and oil cavitation in the cam bearings of a diesel engine. Cam bearings are not loaded nearly as much as a connecting rod via compression ratio and combustion, so it shows that it's possible to have bearing cavitation simply from the bearing design, operating conditions and oil supply pressure (which was a big factor in that study).

If it is oil cavitation in the Coyote, then oil pressure at idle to 1500 RPM could certainly be a big factor. You really need to figure out how to make the oil pump ECU give full pressure at idle. If the ticking goes away with more oil pressure at idle, then at least one could conclude it's an oil pressure and supply volume issue causing the ticking.

On the Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes (without an ECU controlled oil pump), if the oil supply pressure was the culprit of the ticking, then it means those particular engines must have had weaker oil pumps or there was some difference in the oiling system that reduced oil pressure to the inlet of some bearings (choked down feed galleries or bearing inlet holes, etc). Since not every Coyote ticks, there has to be some kind of physical difference between a ticker and a non-ticker.
 

Condor1970

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I spent some time looking for technical papers (SAE and similar) that talked about nano particles such as soot or carbon black, etc changing the cavitation sensitivity of oil in journal bearings, and found absolutely nothing associated with that. If you have links to technical information verifying the claim then I'd like to see the information. Otherwise, it's just a statement made with no backup technical information to backup the claim.

I did however find some technical information that said that nano particles such as soot, ceramic, carbon black (used in XL-17), etc act as friction modifiers. So seems once again that the engine ticking coming and going is more related to the oil friction level than oil cavitation. As we've mentioned before, it could also be a combination of parts clearances sensitive to oil friction level and oil cavitation.

Effect of Soot on Oil Friction.JPG


SAE Paper 2015-01-2033.JPG


I also found a study that talked about ticking and oil cavitation in the cam bearings of a diesel engine. Cam bearings are not loaded nearly as much as a connecting rod via compression ratio and combustion, so it shows that it's possible to have bearing cavitation simply from the bearing design, operating conditions and oil supply pressure (which was a big factor in that study).

If it is oil cavitation in the Coyote, then oil pressure at idle to 1500 RPM could certainly be a big factor. You really need to figure out how to make the oil pump ECU give full pressure at idle. If the ticking goes away with more oil pressure at idle, then at least one could conclude it's an oil pressure and supply volume issue causing the ticking.

On the Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes (without an ECU controlled oil pump), if the oil supply pressure was the culprit of the ticking, then it means those particular engines must have had weaker oil pumps or there was some difference in the oiling system that reduced oil pressure to the inlet of some bearings (choked down feed galleries or bearing inlet holes, etc). Since not every Coyote ticks, there has to be some kind of physical difference between a ticker and a non-ticker.
I really think that this ticking occurs primarily as an oil feed pressure issue at low RPM. The fact that the older Gens had "far less" reported issues with the tick, also upholds this idea, since the older engines ran higher pressures at idle. The magic number for mine seems to be about 30psi. So, even with the older engines that sometimes got down to 25psi at idle, I can see how some report ticking.

You're right, I really wish there was a way to reprogram the oil pump to close the bypass further to provide higher oil pressure at idle. I know for a fact with mine, the tick starts to rear its ugly face below 30psi, and is full on when it drops to about 25psi and below....regardless of the oil temperature.
 

GT Pony

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I really think that this ticking occurs primarily as an oil feed pressure issue at low RPM. The fact that the older Gens had "far less" reported issues with the tick, also upholds this idea, since the older engines ran higher pressures at idle. The magic number for mine seems to be about 30psi. So, even with the older engines that sometimes got down to 25psi at idle, I can see how some report ticking.

You're right, I really wish there was a way to reprogram the oil pump to close the bypass further to provide higher oil pressure at idle. I know for a fact with mine, the tick starts to rear its ugly face below 30psi, and is full on when it drops to about 25psi and below....regardless of the oil temperature.
The best test would be to change the volume of oil going to the engine while the engine stays at idle RPM. Changing the engine RPM like you're doing also changes the dynamics of all the moving parts in the engine, so you don't really know if it's the increased oil volume/pressure and/or the change in moving parts dynamics due an RPM increase.

I'm thinking that just unplugging the wire connector going to the oil pump would put it in a control fail safe mode and give full volume output like a fixed displacement oil pump in a Gen1 or Gen2 Coyote.

Maybe someone with all the 2018+ service manual wiring diagrams could verify if that's true. It could be as easy as unplugging the oil pump from the control system. Probably get a trouble-code, but that could be cleared easy enough.
 

GT Pony

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Well the Gen3 Coyote has a computer controlled variable volume oil pump - so apparently Ford thought it was a "good idea", for CAFE. Hopefully they build the ECU control failure mode for the pump to act like the non computer controlled fixed volume pump in the Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes.
 

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So are the 2020 brand new cars off the lot any different to the 18/19s in terms of probability of excessively loud ticking etc? I'm considering buying 2nd hand ~15,000kms or brand new. Second hand has the benefit that if it was going to tick loudly, it likely already is and I can listen to the engine. Brand new I don't know.

Well the Gen3 Coyote has a computer controlled variable volume oil pump - so apparently Ford thought it was a "good idea", for CAFE. Hopefully they build the ECU control failure mode for the pump to act like the non computer controlled fixed volume pump in the Gen1 and Gen2 Coyotes.
I'm confident that is the case, it likely has a restrictor valve controlled off a solenoid, if you pull power it would fail to fully open. Safer and simpler from a design perspective as well. Would be absolutely crazy to design it in the reverse, though crazier things have happened so it isn't impossible.
 
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SlaughterOfTheSoul

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IF there's a valve there has a to be some indication of control on a schematic in the FSM. I haven't dropped the $130 bucks for that yet but thinking about it just to check this.

Can anyone confirm there's a pressure control signal or solenoid in the block? Surely the oil source causing this tick wouldn't be driving through an external line.

Even if the solenoid operates in reverse "close if fail" terrible logic then we can still just remove it and cap the hole.
 

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IF there's a valve there has a to be some indication of control on a schematic in the FSM. I haven't dropped the $130 bucks for that yet but thinking about it just to check this.

Can anyone confirm there's a pressure control signal or solenoid in the block? Surely the oil source causing this tick wouldn't be driving through an external line.

Even if the solenoid operates in reverse "close if fail" terrible logic then we can still just remove it and cap the hole.
Confirmed. Here’s a few images of it.
78B0E4C7-864A-487B-9147-B65D4B02C3C4.png
CA56181B-CDB8-4087-91FD-987B1DD89C70.png
3602CE24-6C87-46A9-9533-F368F8A9137C.png
 
 




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