2017 gt350 engine failure

[dwalker]

This thread........

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[Voodooo]

I don't know the cause. I'm not inclined to speculate. But I HIGHLY doubt that Ford green lighted a defective, or inadequate pump for this engine. Possible, sure. Probable? No way.
I will quickly admit my error if I am proved wrong.

No where did I ever claim to sue anyone nor would I. Stop saying that.
But you keep saying it's something else and I'm asking your opinion as to what you think it maybe. This doesn't have to be ugly I'm sorry we disagree. I realize the engine is under warranty. But for me that's not an option. My point is that making the gears of powered metal is a bad choice. That my opinion. They have a history of failing in a engine with less hp, less vibrations and less rpm. I do agree in a lesser performance engine such as a truck or normal car they are fine where the hp, rpm and vibrations are less. But the 5.2 is not a "normal" engine. It's basically a street legal race engine that's produced by a manufacturer. You are looking at this from a non performance view. Let's say for example a engine builder were building this engine for a car. I'll put a bet on and say they would in no way use powdered metal OPG.
You don't seem to realize the cause and I may be wrong to you. That's fine we both have our opinions.
I'm sorry if you feel like I'm lashing out at you. I have no hard feelings towards you or your opinions. I just don't agree with you.

 

[Minn19]

BTW, I bought an extended warranty for my car and I'm just not going to worry about it. The car is just too much fun!!!!

Only thing I'll add or comment is that you keep saying to get an extended warranty. That is all well and good, but quite a few of us here have already had our engines replaced for other reasons. It isn't a fun experience time wise or dealing with Ford about it.

IMO, there are so many different ways the Voodoo can destroy itself (and has) it is disconcerting for those of us that bought this car to hold onto for a long time extended warranty or not, nobody wants an unreliable maintenance nightmare of a car.

Last, you are correct, Ford really doesn't owe us anything unless they want us to keep purchasing Ford Performance cars (and F150s in my case) in the future. I'll do as others and just vote with my wallet in the future.

Edit: I do agree the car is a ton of fun, but there comes a time to make a rational decision when is it worth it to keep (or stop) dealing with issues with the platform and move on.

 

[superman07]

I am also quite sure Ford would use a suitable vacuum booster pump for the 2011 and 2012 ecoboost f150 too......................................

Ford clearly makes mistakes, you give a overworked and understaffed engineering group, combined with resource limitations way too much credit.

 

[superman07]

Fact - Ford Performance uses a better gear for high output crate motors.

Very likely - Ford should have used the better gear for this car due to the enhanced nature of the vibration, higher RPM and likelihood for track duty.

Fact - The same gear is used in the 5.0 and there is extensive evidence of failure in high performance applications. I dont need to see the limited voodoo data at this point to voice disappointment.

 

[mustang1]

... Let's truly look at WHY they could be failing. Vibration/harmonics is something that could vary from car to car. Think of a tuning fork. When a tuning fork is bolted down in say 4 places. What's going to decide how that fork sounds when tapped on? Could be the mount itself, slight location change, the torque that it's bolted down. Finally how balanced the internals of the motor are.
I'd like to know how exactly these things are bolted in? Is there a damper around the bolts themselves? It could be something as simple as a bolt resting on an area of the mount that causes more vibration.

No point in over-analyzing. Buy the stock gear and an MMR 9310 billet steel gear and put them to the press. If one can withstand > 10x the PSI than the other, then its settled.

 

[mustang1]

As an example, the Voodoo engine oil pump produces 35-50 psi at IDLE with hot oil. That requires a pump with very close tolerances. My guess is that the Ford engineers spec'd out the performance criteria for the pump and the vendor met a price and performance standard. You can bet your ass that lots of testing was done. Billet gears that perform the same might literally cost 10 times as much.

Let's say the stock gear costs $5, and the billet gear is $50. And that's probably being generous. How does this factor in on limited production car that sells above MSRP + ADM ? Where premium paint and a racing stripe is another $1000 ?

 

[cosmo]

Let's say the stock gear costs $5, and the billet gear is $50. And that's probably being generous. How does this factor in on limited production car that sells above MSRP + ADM ? Where premium paint and a racing stripe is another $1000 ?

It makes things worse. Being able to spread parts across a larger volume reduces the piece price itself, and can help with tooling (i.e. the initial tooling setup is $200k for 50k units and $40k for every 50k units after that).

The problem with relatively high quantity (i.e. greater than 100) of billet components is the initial block of material is more expensive, the part requires more tooling (and thus cycle time), different bits and more frequent changing of said bits are often required. This is not as simple as many are trying to make it out to be. Also, what other billet components are on the GT350? Typically suppliers work with specific materials, so going to something "exotic" requires a new supplier. That's a whole other disaster of a system.

That racing stripes costs Ford maybe $20 and you're being charged $1000 to handle complexity at the engine plant, ordering system, ED&T to suppliers of said stripes, etc.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Let's say the stock gear costs $5, and the billet gear is $50. And that's probably being generous. How does this factor in on limited production car that sells above MSRP + ADM ? Where premium paint and a racing stripe is another $1000 ?

Yikes! I don't disagree with you. A billet pump would be better. $50 is nothing!
But no one has proven that there is anything wrong with the existing pump.
Components are built to do a job. they get SERIOUSLY tested and approved.
You don't just make a component out of "unobtainium" because you can. Too expensive. Then the GT350 would cost $150,000 and none of us would own one. Well, not me anyway.

A few engines have failed for undocumented reasons. This forum is all riled up about oil pumps. Maybe, just maybe, we should see how this develops and then make a judgement based upon the facts. Or we can all just keep ranting ;)

 

[Minn19]

It makes things worse. Being able to spread parts across a larger volume reduces the piece price itself, and can help with tooling (i.e. the initial tooling setup is $200k for 50k units and $40k for every 50k units after that).

The problem with relatively high quantity (i.e. greater than 100) of billet components is the initial block of material is more expensive, the part requires more tooling (and thus cycle time), different bits and more frequent changing of said bits are often required. This is not as simple as many are trying to make it out to be. Also, what other billet components are on the GT350? Typically suppliers work with specific materials, so going to something "exotic" requires a new supplier. That's a whole other disaster of a system.

That racing stripes costs Ford maybe $20 and you're being charged $1000 to handle complexity at the engine plant, ordering system, ED&T to suppliers of said stripes, etc.

Yikes! I don't disagree with you. A billet pump would be better. $50 is nothing!
But no one has proven that there is anything wrong with the existing pump.
Components are built to do a job. they get SERIOUSLY tested and approved.
You don't just make a component out of "unobtainium" because you can. Too expensive. Then the GT350 would cost $150,000 and none of us would own one. Well, not me anyway.

A few engines have failed for undocumented reasons. This forum is all riled up about oil pumps. Maybe, just maybe, we should see how this develops and then make a judgement based upon the facts. Or we can all just keep ranting ;)

You guys are ignoring that their is clear history of this pump failing in other high performance aspects. Not to mention Ford has made mistakes in the past. Sometimes testing doesn't fully reveal problems that crop up in the real world either.

Also, as has been said, the vast majority of us would've paid the extra $500 or something similar for it to have the better pump.

I do agree though that it would be nice to know exactly what is going on. Regardless, it would've also been nice if Ford just put the upgraded pump in the Voodoo as they did with many other parts of the engine.

 

[Zombo]

This thread........

Is this a video of the oil pump in question operating?

 

[Voodooo]

Yikes! I don't disagree with you. A billet pump would be better. $50 is nothing!
But no one has proven that there is anything wrong with the existing pump.
Components are built to do a job. they get SERIOUSLY tested and approved.
You don't just make a component out of "unobtainium" because you can. Too expensive. Then the GT350 would cost $150,000 and none of us would own one. Well, not me anyway.

A few engines have failed for undocumented reasons. This forum is all riled up about oil pumps. Maybe, just maybe, we should see how this develops and then make a judgement based upon the facts. Or we can all just keep ranting ;)

And here we are yet again and you still admit it's been a few failed engines, yet you still have no comment as to why they failed. You keep saying it's too expensive to use a billet gear from fords point, and yet you assume it's something else that's the cause. Then tell me old great one, what is it that is causing the engine to fail? After all you keep saying you believe it's something else. Even if it is something else that part has also been tested and made from ideal material. Correct? And it could also be the root cause.

 

[machsmith]

I used to be an applications engineer with Yamazen ( for 5 years) 20 years ago, since I've been in CNC machining business for myself. Not 1 time, did I hear of someone making less money on a part, making more of them, unless they quoted the job way low. In which case it was their own fault. As an applications engineer, the customer was elected to bid a job for a customer, if they came to us looking to buy a Mori Seiki, I did a time study and gave it to the customer. If they offered to buy conditional of a test study, then I'd buy the materials, program the part and do a demonstration for them, sometimes for 100 parts, depending on their requirements.
98% of the time the time study was right on and the customer was making money.

Since I quit my job with Yamazen, the machining sector has been a basketcase trying to compete with china. When I first started my business, even with all the contacts I had, it was tough going, but I branched out into other sectors and now I make a damn good living because I'm not playing cut throat with cheep china labor. I'll let ford and companies like them, farm their cheap parts out to someone else, all the while, I make a good wage on parts that pay. For instance, I'm making a part right now that I gross $98. The material cost is $6./part. Tooling cost is about 1/part. I make 1 part every 7 minutes of machine time. While the machine is running, the part is deburred, cleaned well, and boxed. They couldn't pay me enough to make these billet gears! OK, maybe 300-400/part would be acceptable

 

[cosmo]

You guys are ignoring that their is clear history of this pump failing in other high performance aspects. Not to mention Ford has made mistakes in the past. Sometimes testing doesn't fully reveal problems that crop up in the real world either.

Also, as has been said, the vast majority of us would've paid the extra $500 or something similar for it to have the better pump.

I do agree though that it would be nice to know exactly what is going on. Regardless, it would've also been nice if Ford just put the upgraded pump in the Voodoo as they did with many other parts of the engine.

:lol: And you're ignoring the engineering and manufacturing side of it. Also, "high" performance instances have typically been with blown motors as the "jerk" from the higher amount of torque is what is associated with failure. Not so much the RPMs or the NVH.

https://www.lmengines.com/mod-motor-oil-pump-failures/

Can someone provide an example of a billet component used on a mass (10k +) production engine elsewhere?

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

OK, so that is from what? How many engines are built or how many cars that are built? Who's doing the investigation on OUR part of whats being destroyed? Are we supposed to TRUST that we're getting the truth when there is a large amount of money on the table for ford to be open and honest? IF its not lawsuits out the wazzooo, I don't trust them. This OPG or whatever is destroying our engines, isn't gonna kill us (most likely) but we sure got notice about the oil lines and there are less of those instances reported on here than destroyed engines. I have no doubt in my mind there will be more than 1.5% of these engines being destroyed of the 18000 that will be made. haha, maybe thats why ford is building them an additional year, to hopefully offset the defected engines to keep it below the 1.5%. Maybe they will keep a better eye on the builds...or demand better QC from the suppliers.

We'll never know the truth unfortunately, and its hard to say what is acceptably in their books from a profit standpoint. You really think that 270 engines are going to fail (based on the 18000 you projected) as a direct result of the OPG failing? I can see that many or more failing within the warranty period, but for a multitude of reasons rather than all due to a singular cause such as the OPG.

Ok people. I know this is not rocket science and that this is not a way to test the durability of a OPG as it works on the engine. But it proves how weak the powdered metal OPG is when dropped on a Concrete floor for. Height of less then 4 feet. I did two drops. The first you'll notice a ring in the steel as it hits the floor. The second drop you'll notice a thud when it hits the floor. The first drop fractured the thin wall of the OPG. A steel billet gear would not break this easy. Again I realize this is not a proper test. Just pointing out how weak the metal is.

Scott, while it does show some "weakness" in that manner, it is 100% irrelevant to the design. It is like saying concrete is very weak because it has terrible tensile strength, when it made to be strong under compression forces. Or like saying paper is weak because you can rip it in half, but try pulling on each ends, see how easy it is to pull apart under tension.

Every part is designed with a specific application in mind, and scrutinizing it under that manner isn't relative to the items intended purpose or design in any way, as you said yourself.

By no means am I saying that what you witnessed was a good thing! haha just that because you saw it fail easily in that manner, doesn't correlate in any way to its application in the fuel pump.

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