2017 gt350 engine failure

[Bcobb85]

I am by no means an expert on the internal workings of this motor. Having said that, my thought is as follows:

Because the engineers at Ford did in fact spend so much time and thought into developing a specific block, heads, intake, exhaust, crank, rods, pistons, oil pan, cams, and even oil pump housing, logic would suggest that they did take a close look at the oil pump...Hell, they even thought it necessary to change the housing. And because (as others have stated) the cost of upgrading the OPGs would be relatively small, the only logical reason that I can think of for the Ford Engineers to not revise the OPGs themselves would be because after doing whatever testing that they do during the motor development, they found that there was no need to change them. I agree that on paper an 8,250 rpm FPC V8 should have billet OPGs. But since I, nor anyone else here, was involved in the process of developing the motor, and because we've only seen a handfull of failed motors (which we are assuming is OPG related), my thought is that the engineers at Ford came to the conclusion that the OPGs in our cars are sufficient for our engines (at least in stock form) after collecting data (which we don't have) from testing the engine during development. I'm sure we will see other similar instances of failed engines over the life of this car but I think that if billet OPG's were as vital to the durability of this motor as some are suggesting, then we would be seeing far more failed motors than we are.

Again, this is just my personal though on the subject, please dont flame me, lol.

Sponsored

 

[Voodooo]

Yeah and ever engine that's failed had less than 5000 miles on it.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Actually he's not that far off. When you can buy a bulk of 100+K of an item per year, you can really get it on the cheap. Probably no more than $1-$5 per OPG unit over what they are paying for the OEM powdered version. I don't think most mustang owners would even notice an extra $20 on the MSRP if you wanted to even go that far.

They buy the pump from a Tier 1 vendor. The vendor is tied to Ford's quality system and is 100% accountable for precision, QC tolerances, consequential damages, etc. The vendor has to show test results for strength and durability, often at 150% of rated load and for well beyond normal expected life cycles.
I am genuinely amused by the suggestion that Ford doesn't know what it is doing when it comes to oil pumps. Do you honestly think that they don't care about a critical engine component? A component that will cost them thousands of dollars if it fails. That suggestion borders on the ludicrous.
To change the pump requires an enormous, long-term project, unless there is a crisis. The vendor submits a detailed analysis along with tons of test data and the process takes at least a year.

 

[Voodooo]

They buy the pump from a Tier 1 vendor. The vendor is tied to Ford's quality system and is 100% accountable for precision, QC tolerances, consequential damages, etc. The vendor has to show test results for strength and durability, often at 150% of rated load and for well beyond normal expected life cycles.
I am genuinely amused by the suggestion that Ford doesn't know what it is doing when it comes to oil pumps. Do you honestly think that they don't care about a critical engine component? A component that will cost them thousands of dollars if it fails. That suggestion borders on the ludicrous.
To change the pump requires an enormous, long-term project, unless there is a crisis. The vendor submits a detailed analysis along with tons of test data and the process takes at least a year.

Your post is becoming diluted.
You just said in this post about how the pump is tested by its supplier. Correct I agree. But guess what? That goes for all vendors that make the other internal engine parts that can fail, this goes for any manufactured part no matter what it's for. If a valve spring fails, or a piston fails it will also cause failure or damage. Those very parts are also tested and must meet QC standards. This does not make it fail proof or bullet proof. But like I keep saying, it's a mechanical, man made piece! I do not care how tested, how great, how pretty, how proven it is. It can still fail. They DO NOT TEST EVERY SINGLE OPG OR PIECE!

Why do you engineers always argue facts?
The space shuttle was a engineering marvel!
But guess what took it down. A simple O ring failure.
You can engineer the worlds strongest bridge and it can still collapse.
You can engineer a ship that will not sink, but the Titanic sunk!
See where I'm going?

I do not care how much testing any manufacturer does. Parts break and fail.
You can live by the "don't fit it until it's broke" but that's foolish.

Even engineers need heros...
MECHANICS!

 

[Bcobb85]

Your post is becoming diluted.
You just said in this post about how the pump is tested by its supplier. Correct I agree. But guess what? That goes for all vendors that make the other internal engine parts that can fail, this goes for any manufactured part no matter what it's for. If a valve spring fails, or a piston fails it will also cause failure or damage. Those very parts are also tested and must meet QC standards. This does not make it fail proof or bullet proof. But like I keep saying, it's a mechanical, man made piece! I do not care how tested, how great, how pretty, how proven it is. It can still fail. They DO NOT TEST EVERY SINGLE OPG OR PIECE!

Why do you engineers always argue facts?
The space shuttle was a engineering marvel!
But guess what took it down. A simple O ring failure.
You can engineer the worlds strongest bridge and it can still collapse.
You can engineer a ship that will not sink, but the Titanic sunk!
See where I'm going?

I do not care how much testing any manufacturer does. Parts break and fail.
You can live by the "don't fit it until it's broke" but that's foolish.

Even engineers need heros...
MECHANICS!

Agreed, which is why a handful of failed OPGs does not mean that the part itself or engineering behind it is flawed...there are going to be failures in any mass produced motor, regardless of how great it is. If you purchase a performance focused car expecting to not see engine failures here and there then you are going to be disappointed...just ask 991 GT3 owners.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Your post is becoming diluted.
You just said in this post about how the pump is tested by its supplier. Correct I agree. But guess what? That goes for all vendors that make the other internal engine parts that can fail, this goes for any manufactured part no matter what it's for. If a valve spring fails, or a piston fails it will also cause failure or damage. Those very parts are also tested and must meet QC standards. This does not make it fail proof or bullet proof. But like I keep saying, it's a mechanical, man made piece! I do not care how tested, how great, how pretty, how proven it is. It can still fail. They DO NOT TEST EVERY SINGLE OPG OR PIECE!

Why do you engineers always argue facts?
The space shuttle was a engineering marvel!
But guess what took it down. A simple O ring failure.
You can engineer the worlds strongest bridge and it can still collapse.
You can engineer a ship that will not sink, but the Titanic sunk!
See where I'm going?

I do not care how much testing any manufacturer does. Parts break and fail.
You can live by the "don't fit it until it's broke" but that's foolish.

Even engineers need heros...
MECHANICS!

You are absolutely convinced that the pump is the problem. OK. I'm not.
I believe just as strongly that these pump gears are being killed by foreign-object-damage, something they were never designed to handle.
I know for a fact that Ford tested that engine for tens of thousands of hours under horrific conditions and then checked every component for signs of trouble. If the pump had been a problem, it would have been fixed.
The Titanic wasn't an engineering failure. It was never designed to be an Icebreaker, so it sank. Duh.

Just a word of caution. if you modify your GT350 engine in any way and you do have an engine failure, Ford will tell you to go pound sand. You will have let them off the hook.
I have a 2007 Mercedes Benz CLS550 with 75,000 miles. An MB vendor sold them a cam chain tensioner with inferior metallurgical properties and 100% of them wore out in 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Even though my warranty had expired, MB paid the bill to pull my engine, replace the tensioner, gears and cam chain. $7000 bill. They even gave me a loaner.
Wanna know who paid that bill really? The vendor. Every last nickel. 20,000 engines affected.
That's how it works in the big leagues.

 

[Voodooo]

Agreed, which is why a handful of failed OPGs does not mean that the part itself or engineering behind it is flawed...there are going to be failures in any mass produced motor, regardless of how great it is. If you purchase a performance focused car expecting to not see engine failures here and there then you are going to be disappointed...just ask 991 GT3 owners.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. I'm disagreeing that some think it's something other than the opg's. I strongly believe it's the opg's. Until I'm proven otherwise I'm sticking with my theory.

 

[Bcobb85]

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. I'm disagreeing that some think it's something other than the opg's. I strongly believe it's the opg's. Until I'm proven otherwise I'm sticking with my theory.

We're on the same page. All signs point to the issue being the OPGs in the handful of engine failures that we've seen, though I would still like some documented confirmation of that...I won't be holding my breath though.

 

[Voodooo]

You are absolutely convinced that the pump is the problem. OK. I'm not.
I believe just as strongly that these pump gears are being killed by foreign-object-damage, something they were never designed to handle.
I know for a fact that Ford tested that engine for tens of thousands of hours under horrific conditions and then checked every component for signs of trouble. If the pump had been a problem, it would have been fixed.
The Titanic wasn't an engineering failure. It was never designed to be an Icebreaker, so it sank. Duh.

Just a word of caution. if you modify your GT350 engine in any way and you do have an engine failure, Ford will tell you to go pound sand. You will have let them off the hook.
I have a 2007 Mercedes Benz CLS550 with 75,000 miles. An MB vendor sold them a cam chain tensioner with inferior metallurgical properties and 100% of them wore out in 50,000 to 100,000 miles. Even though my warranty had expired, MB paid the bill to pull my engine, replace the tensioner, gears and cam chain. $7000 bill. They even gave me a loaner.
Wanna know who paid that bill really? The vendor. Every last nickel. 20,000 engines affected.
That's how it works in the big leagues.

PLEASE answer me these 3 questions.

1) You keep saying it's foreign objects that killing the gears. Give me your definition of foreign objects in detail please.

2) On a 5.0 with a supercharger, what kills the opg's

3) did ford test the oil cooler hoses? Did they go through a rigorous test?


You do realize that the 5.0 and 5.2 use the same OPG and material correct?
The 5.2 has 91 more hp.
The 5.2 has over 1000 more rpm
The 5.2 has a FPC

My point of the Titanic was it was named unsinkable. Duh!

Warranties mean nothing to me. I would never allow anyone but myself to service or repair my vehicles. And yes. Mine is modified.

 

[mustang1]

You are absolutely convinced that the pump is the problem. OK. I'm not.
I believe just as strongly that these pump gears are being killed by foreign-object-damage, something they were never designed to handle ...

if that is the case, what is the point of this part ? I suppose we could debate the word "race".

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6600-50CJ

5.0L TI-VCT BILLET STEEL GEROTOR OIL PUMP

Oil pump assembly with billet steel gerotor set

Recommended for race and power adder applications

 

[Voodooo]

if that is the case, what is the point of this part ? I suppose we could debate the word "race".

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6600-50CJ

5.0L TI-VCT BILLET STEEL GEROTOR OIL PUMP

Oil pump assembly with billet steel gerotor set

Recommended for race and power adder applications

He doesn't realize this is just an EPA rating away from a race engine. After all ford did say themselves this is the highest hp production engine they ever offered.
I will say this, "IF" ford made the 5.2 voodoo with a cpc instead of a fpc the opgs would probably be better off. But they should of still had stronger opg's because of the rpm and hp rating.

 

[machsmith]

5 2 crate engine comes with billet gears doesn't it? The 350R stands for Race doesn't it? Should be built for it.

Let's truly look at WHY they could be failing. Vibration/harmonics is something that could vary from car to car. Think of a tuning fork. When a tuning fork is bolted down in say 4 places. What's going to decide how that fork sounds when tapped on? Could be the mount itself, slight location change, the torque that it's bolted down. Finally how balanced the internals of the motor are.
I'd like to know how exactly these things are bolted in? Is there a damper around the bolts themselves? It could be something as simple as a bolt resting on an area of the mount that causes more vibration.
I know it's splitting hairs but these engines shouldn't be failing like this.
I've never been involved on a forum where the engines are getting toasted to this degree. None of the engines that I know of have been beat on... most well cared for. Just think...this tiny forum and we've seen 6 to 10 of these things? Who knows, real word figures could be 20+x that. That's a lot of failures for only 9000 of these cars built with most having very low miles.
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but does anyone here think ford will get right on a recall for such a thing? Haha hell no...ain't gonna happen. Only if it becomes an official nightmare. If by the time ford builds 18,000 of these engines and 1000 of them are toast...Maybe then? 5% maybe 10% with 30,000 miles on them?

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

You na Sayers kill me. First of all stop blaming the bean counters for everything. Second a stronger set of opg's would not add that much to a engines cost! You all think just because aftermarket gears cost $200-$500 that it also cost ford the same amount to supply them. That's stupid thinking.
If the bean counters controlled everything we wouldn't have a fpc, a new block, new heads, tr3160, carbon fiber wheels, brembo brakes, unique rotors, etc.
we are talking about a OPG in a engine that red lines to 8250rpm. I can't believe some of you think that all the engineering that went into this engine that ford took the cheap easy way and reused the same material and opg's from the 5.0 that fail all the time in a supercharged engine. A supercharger also adds vibrations and is also the cause of the 5.0 OPG failure.

Scott, you are clearly an intelligent individual, but you are making gross assumptions based on a lack of understanding or knowledge behind engineering design. You make assumptions based on what you witness regarding the final product, without knowing the various aspects that affected that product's final outcome. They could very well say "we'd like to build a FPC V8", typical response from management "Why? How will it make us money? Can you achieve our acceptable reliability standards with this design?"

Explain this to me.
Ford built their most powerful V8 production engine ever they say. The voodoo has a specific block, heads, intake, exhaust, crank, rods, Pistons, oil pan, cams, oil pump housing and of all the things they skimp on is to reuse the 5.0 powdered metal opg's. On a engine that turns 8250 rpm, vibrates and makes more hp and tq then a 5.0. I can not believe some of you do not get it. You want to argue the facts! Ford will never admit it but they fked up using the wrong opg's for this engine. If you want to wait around and pray it does t happen to you then be my guest. I'll put my own guarantee on it. It's the opg's that fail.
If for example it's something else that's causing the oil pressure drop, it would give warning before hand. Before the low oil pressure light. If a cam phaser goes, if a valve spring breaks, if a bearing spins, you'll know it before the low oil pressure warning comes on. What do I know.
I'm also working on possibly going to a dry oiling system.

We're not being nay-sayers or non-believers. We're simply looking at it from an engineering point of view, it is you who has an issue understanding how that process works. You're too emotionally involved, and because of your frustration you're making assumptions and aren't thinking clearly or logically.

You list all of the parts that were uniquely designed for the Voodoo, so yes, you can bet your ass that the stock OPG's fell within their acceptable range of reliability. What would make you think that of all the aspects of the engine that were designed and tested, that they just ASSUMED it would be ok to reuse the old gears? That isn't how engineering design works, and I'm sorry if you don't want to accept that.

And it is absolutely the bean counters that dictate these decisions. They are given a bottom dollar to get a project done. They evaluate each and EVERY aspect to ensure it meets the required standards. So tell me, if they have a part that meets their internal reliability ratings, why would they go ahead and say "oh heck, let's just redesign it anyway!" having to source another vendor, go through the QA/QC verification processes again, perform all the individual testing of the new pieces in its application again, etc. rather than say OK we can use that KNOWN QUANTITY and use that money to improve some other aspect elsewhere.

It is a game of compromise no doubt.

Your post is becoming diluted.
You just said in this post about how the pump is tested by its supplier. Correct I agree. But guess what? That goes for all vendors that make the other internal engine parts that can fail, this goes for any manufactured part no matter what it's for. If a valve spring fails, or a piston fails it will also cause failure or damage. Those very parts are also tested and must meet QC standards. This does not make it fail proof or bullet proof. But like I keep saying, it's a mechanical, man made piece! I do not care how tested, how great, how pretty, how proven it is. It can still fail. They DO NOT TEST EVERY SINGLE OPG OR PIECE!

Why do you engineers always argue facts?
The space shuttle was a engineering marvel!
But guess what took it down. A simple O ring failure.
You can engineer the worlds strongest bridge and it can still collapse.
You can engineer a ship that will not sink, but the Titanic sunk!
See where I'm going?

I do not care how much testing any manufacturer does. Parts break and fail.
You can live by the "don't fit it until it's broke" but that's foolish.

Even engineers need heros...
MECHANICS!

I'm sorry Scott, but it is the management/accountants that rule the roost on every design project. I know first hand how design works, and if the numbers and testing fall within the range, thats it, it is what is being done if it saves money. No company says to themselves "well heck, here we have a part that meets our criteria (however lax/strict that criteria may be), but we'll just spend more in development anyway for the hell of it"... said no business professional ever. It is ALL about meeting the required specs with the lowest possible cost.

Not only that, but you are continuing to claim and give your "guarantee" that it was absolutely the OPG, that 5.0's fail due to the supercharger, etc. etc. Do I think that these aren't the cases? They very well could be. Then again, after a detailed failure analysis and differential diagnostics you could find very few of those cases were CAUSED directly by the OPG failing, we simply do not know without that information. Like I said, you're clearly a very intelligent fellow with a wealth of experience, and I just don't like to see a guy like yourself stating items as facts and claiming things when in reality the majority are assumptions. I know you are very passionate about your work, passionate about Fords, and I know you're also very upset between your view on the OPG's and the whole cooler hose fiasco that I don't blame you one bit about. But taking that emotion, that anger and frustration, and attempting to claim facts about aspects of design and reliability that quite frankly is not your expertise, just isn't logical man.

I absolutely WISH it wasn't the case. I WISH they would have used a better gear, but then again I understand why they never. If you want a no holds barred car that uses the best technology available on the planet, go look at a Koenigsegg, as they are IMO the only company pushing the envelope and really attempting to use the best of everything possible in every area of design.

I am by no means an expert on the internal workings of this motor. Having said that, my thought is as follows:

Because the engineers at Ford did in fact spend so much time and thought into developing a specific block, heads, intake, exhaust, crank, rods, pistons, oil pan, cams, and even oil pump housing, logic would suggest that they did take a close look at the oil pump...Hell, they even thought it necessary to change the housing. And because (as others have stated) the cost of upgrading the OPGs would be relatively small, the only logical reason that I can think of for the Ford Engineers to not revise the OPGs themselves would be because after doing whatever testing that they do during the motor development, they found that there was no need to change them. I agree that on paper an 8,250 rpm FPC V8 should have billet OPGs. But since I, nor anyone else here, was involved in the process of developing the motor, and because we've only seen a handfull of failed motors (which we are assuming is OPG related), my thought is that the engineers at Ford came to the conclusion that the OPGs in our cars are sufficient for our engines (at least in stock form) after collecting data (which we don't have) from testing the engine during development. I'm sure we will see other similar instances of failed engines over the life of this car but I think that if billet OPG's were as vital to the durability of this motor as some are suggesting, then we would be seeing far more failed motors than we are.

Again, this is just my personal though on the subject, please dont flame me, lol.

Pretty much exactly what myself and Forged have been saying, and I agree with all of it. Everyone is acting like you are going to grenade your car every time you hit the start up button, and it isn't even close to the truth. I know how reliability engineering works, and it is BY FAR a better financial decision to trust in the odds and retain our warranty over the next 2-3 years before installing an aftermarket OPG.

I will absolutely be installing an aftermarket unit when my warranty expires, but why risk having warranty denied for likely less than 1% chance of a failure occurring?

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

5 2 crate engine comes with billet gears doesn't it? The 350R stands for Race doesn't it? Should be built for it.

Let's truly look at WHY they could be failing. Vibration/harmonics is something that could vary from car to car. Think of a tuning fork. When a tuning fork is bolted down in say 4 places. What's going to decide how that fork sounds when tapped on? Could be the mount itself, slight location change, the torque that it's bolted down. Finally how balanced the internals of the motor are.
I'd like to know how exactly these things are bolted in? Is there a damper around the bolts themselves? It could be something as simple as a bolt resting on an area of the mount that causes more vibration.
I know it's splitting hairs but these engines shouldn't be failing like this.
I've never been involved on a forum where the engines are getting toasted to this degree. None of the engines that I know of have been beat on... most well cared for. Just think...this tiny forum and we've seen 6 to 10 of these things? Who knows, real word figures could be 20+x that. That's a lot of failures for only 9000 of these cars built with most having very low miles.
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but does anyone here think ford will get right on a recall for such a thing? Haha hell no...ain't gonna happen. Only if it becomes an official nightmare. If by the time ford builds 18,000 of these engines and 1000 of them are toast...Maybe then? 5% maybe 10% with 30,000 miles on them?

You're most likely looking at less than 1.5-2% MAX for total failures before a recall gets issued. We've seen a few on here yes, but again, we are ASSUMING that it is 100% the OPG's that are causing the failures. Chances of several hundred engines popping directly because of the OPG's? Chances are probably very, very small.

 

[Voodooo]

Scott, you are clearly an intelligent individual, but you are making gross assumptions based on a lack of understanding or knowledge behind engineering design. You make assumptions based on what you witness regarding the final product, without knowing the various aspects that affected that product's final outcome. They could very well say "we'd like to build a FPC V8", typical response from management "Why? How will it make us money? Can you achieve our acceptable reliability standards with this design?"



We're not being nay-sayers or non-believers. We're simply looking at it from an engineering point of view, it is you who has an issue understanding how that process works. You're too emotionally involved, and because of your frustration you're making assumptions and aren't thinking clearly or logically.

You list all of the parts that were uniquely designed for the Voodoo, so yes, you can bet your ass that the stock OPG's fell within their acceptable range of reliability. What would make you think that of all the aspects of the engine that were designed and tested, that they just ASSUMED it would be ok to reuse the old gears? That isn't how engineering design works, and I'm sorry if you don't want to accept that.

And it is absolutely the bean counters that dictate these decisions. They are given a bottom dollar to get a project done. They evaluate each and EVERY aspect to ensure it meets the required standards. So tell me, if they have a part that meets their internal reliability ratings, why would they go ahead and say "oh heck, let's just redesign it anyway!" having to source another vendor, go through the QA/QC verification processes again, perform all the individual testing of the new pieces in its application again, etc. rather than say OK we can use that KNOWN QUANTITY and use that money to improve some other aspect elsewhere.

It is a game of compromise no doubt.



I'm sorry Scott, but it is the management/accountants that rule the roost on every design project. I know first hand how design works, and if the numbers and testing fall within the range, thats it, it is what is being done if it saves money. No company says to themselves "well heck, here we have a part that meets our criteria (however lax/strict that criteria may be), but we'll just spend more in development anyway for the hell of it"... said no business professional ever. It is ALL about meeting the required specs with the lowest possible cost.

Not only that, but you are continuing to claim and give your "guarantee" that it was absolutely the OPG, that 5.0's fail due to the supercharger, etc. etc. Do I think that these aren't the cases? They very well could be. Then again, after a detailed failure analysis and differential diagnostics you could find very few of those cases were CAUSED directly by the OPG failing, we simply do not know without that information. Like I said, you're clearly a very intelligent fellow with a wealth of experience, and I just don't like to see a guy like yourself stating items as facts and claiming things when in reality the majority are assumptions. I know you are very passionate about your work, passionate about Fords, and I know you're also very upset between your view on the OPG's and the whole cooler hose fiasco that I don't blame you one bit about. But taking that emotion, that anger and frustration, and attempting to claim facts about aspects of design and reliability that quite frankly is not your expertise, just isn't logical man.

I absolutely WISH it wasn't the case. I WISH they would have used a better gear, but then again I understand why they never. If you want a no holds barred car that uses the best technology available on the planet, go look at a Koenigsegg, as they are IMO the only company pushing the envelope and really attempting to use the best of everything possible in every area of design.



Pretty much exactly what myself and Forged have been saying, and I agree with all of it. Everyone is acting like you are going to grenade your car every time you hit the start up button, and it isn't even close to the truth. I know how reliability engineering works, and it is BY FAR a better financial decision to trust in the odds and retain our warranty over the next 2-3 years before installing an aftermarket OPG.

I will absolutely be installing an aftermarket unit when my warranty expires, but why risk having warranty denied for likely less than 1% chance of a failure occurring?

Here's my point.
Forged what's to say it's not the OPG because they tested it. But he also said he believes it's something else that is causing the opg's failure. I'm asking him or anyone else to explain what that maybe that causes the opg's failure and yet you or forged cannot. All you two keep saying is it's something else. But yet you say you still want to change the opg's after your cars out of warranty. With a statement like that, you don't trust the opg's yourself.
I am NOT saying all opg's will fail. I'm not saying another one will fail. I'm saying it's a poor choice in engineering to use powdered metal.
I am not angry in any way towards you or anyone. But I am disappointed in ford for making the choice to use an inferior material when it comes to the heart of the engine. Yes I get engineering. Yes I get bean counters. But I do not agree with you in the cost aspect between powdered and billet opg's.

Until your engine goes south, you won't care. If it does blow you'll be upset. Especially when the dealer gets ahold of the car and does something else to it.

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