BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[GT Pony]

Have you heard any cases of 5-W30 helping?

I'm up to using Cera Tec (I used it before in my Mercedes) but my oil is at capacity already. A full treatment in this engine would require 600 ml of the Liqui Moli.

I've only read of a couple of cases here where the guys said 5W-30 helped. Might depend on how bad the ticking was to begin with. You could try one bottle of the Cera Tec (300 ml) in your 2018, and it will still probably help if it's going to work at all.

Sponsored

 

[GT Pony]

Okay bare with me these were measured in thou's
3 of them were 22 thou and the other near to the fly was a whopping 24 thou (.6096) as opposed to (.5000)
.5mm =19,685 thou, so all were over the max tolerance.
On one of the oil holes had a burr and has scratched the bearing, i will post up a couple of photos later.

@spogshd - looks like the pair of rods (next to the flywheel) that measured at 0.024 in. is the pair that the Tech was rattling back and forth in the YouTube video you posted a while back in another thread.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/how-excessive-is-this-rod.108361/

Standard (target) clearance is supposed to be 0.0128 in. (0.325 mm) ... so some of them are twice the target, and also outside the max allowed of 0.0197 in. (0.50 mm). I still think the ticking is caused by too much rod side clearance on a lot of these engines.

 

[michail71]

How bad of a problem is too much rod side clearance?

 

[GT Pony]

How bad of a problem is too much rod side clearance?

It's entirely possible that it could be one cause of the BBQ Tick. The car that had the loose rod side clearance was a ticker. Ford replaces short blocks that have the ticking issue, which is probably cheaper than a Tech tearing down and removing and replacing crankshaft and maybe rods and bearings on top of that if this is a cause or the ticking.

This rod side clearance measurement is the only real report of a measurement so far. It would be interesting if some other ticking engines could also have similar measurements taken to verify their clearance.

 

[CEHollier]

It's entirely possible that it could be one cause of the BBQ Tick. The car that had the loose rod side clearance was a ticker. Ford replaces short blocks that have the ticking issue, which is probably cheaper than a Tech tearing down and removing and replacing crankshaft and maybe rods and bearings on top of that if this is a cause or the ticking.

This rod side clearance measurement is the only real report of a measurement so far. It would be interesting if some other ticking engines could also have similar measurements taken to verify their clearance.

I guess the new short blocks are a crap roll too.

 

[GT Pony]

I guess the new short blocks are a crap roll too.

Anything made and assembled by humans is a crap roll unless there is some very good level of QA involved.

 

[CEHollier]

Anything made and assembled by a humans is a crap roll unless there is some very good level of QA involved.

Are the Coyote engines made in the USA or Mexico?

 

[scotty]

Canada actually ... Windsor

 

[GT Pony]

Okay bare with me these were measured in thou's
3 of them were 22 thou and the other near to the fly was a whopping 24 thou (.6096) as opposed to (.5000)
.5mm =19,685 thou, so all were over the max tolerance.
On one of the oil holes had a burr and has scratched the bearing, i will post up a couple of photos later.

@spogshd - What's the dealer and Ford going to do for your friend's situation? If he ends up with a new short block it would be good info if the Tech could measure the rod side clearance on the new short block to compare.

 

[spogshd]

@spogshd - What's the dealer and Ford going to do for your friend's situation? If he ends up with a new short block it would be good info if the Tech could measure the rod side clearance on the new short block to compare.

Ford didn't want to know, they said because it had a tune it void the warranty, but i guess the tune didn't do that to the crank, lol.
This is an independent inspection and a report then we will see if ford do anything about it as it is clearly out of spec. The only other thing to check is the thickness of the rod ends, but i guess the bearings would be wider than the rod end, but this could explain why some have had shavings in the oil pan.
The sound it makes in the video is the nearest you can get to replicating the tick, just my opinion, but we need others to check there,s. I take it a short block comes with a new crank ye.

 

[spogshd]

Does anyone know what the spec is for the rod ends.

 

[TheLion]

No, higher viscosity typically don't resolve the problem in most cases. A few people have reported success with that, but only one or two on a list of 50+. I think the Cera Tec is a better choice. Just loosen the plug and drain out a small amount into a measuring cup.

 

[TheLion]

GT Pony had the specs posted on of these pages for side to side clearances, unless your meaning rod bearing clearances. But it looks like he was spot on in this particular case. Not just about the side to side clearance causing this issue, but also that it doesn't result in any engine damage in most cases. It would depend on how out of spec the clearances are as to weather or not it will cause issues. UOA's would likely show signs of an issue that's going to cause functional problems down the road.

It just makes for a ticking, clanky engine. I see zero signs of any damage from heat scoring, contact wear or anything of the sort. The only rod bearing with a mark I presume is the one with the burr on the oil passage hole.

It doesn't appear there is anything wrong with that engine functionally other than the ticking or was there drive ability issues? Sucks he was tuned however, that's why I advocate you stay away from after market tunes or go with Ford Performance and have it registered. Either of those would have saved him what? $7k? Even if that car was past 36k miles, the Ford Performance power packs do not void you new vehicle limited warranty.

They would need to find evidence that the Ford Performance modification CAUSED this issue, otherwise manufacturing / assembly defects are still covered until your power-train warranty expires. My GT came with a 100k power-train as I got it certified used.

In this case it's clearly a manufacturing defect with out of tolerance parts, not a wear problem associated with a power adder. The sides of the big ends of the rods would have to be severely scored for this to have been a wear problem and I'm guessing the sides of the big ends are as pristine as the bearings. This would be a case where the new vehicle limited warranty would still be in effect even after 36k miles with a Ford Performance Power Pack that was dealer installed.

But in this case because it's an after market tune it automatically voids his warranty and he's assuming the risk of that the ECU calibration poses to the engine's long term reliability, but also the risk of Ford's manufacturing flaws that could be present. It's a legal loop hole regardless of the fact that we all know it had nothing to do with that.

 

[TheLion]

If that block is fine and it's the rods that are out of tolerance, why not buy an after market set of forged rods and pistons and just re-build the block? That's what, $3000 in parts to make a bullet proof bottom end with Manley Forged Rods and Mahle Forged Pistons and a machined Billet Oil Pump, aka you have a Ford Performance Aluminator....that block could tolerate 1,000 HP easy then. It doesn't appear there's any damage what so ever to the crank etc. That's what I would do if I got the warranty cold shoulder due to a non OE ECU calibration. Also if he wants to go FI, that would be the chance to change his compression ratio down to 9 from 11 for FI applications which gives you better FI efficiency (obviously he would need to go FI right away as he couldn't run the car 9.5:1 NA).

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but don't see a single sign that the engine was on it's last leg and suffering from severe wear issues. How about some pics of the sides of the big ends of the rods with the worst clearances?

Also note that metal shavings after the first oil change does NOT necessarily indicate an issue. There are often machining debris left in the block that get flushed out when you first run the car, but large enough shavings that settle at the bottom of the pan may very well be from production machining that weren't properly cleaned out. You would need to check it after a second oil change and after flushing the engine with fresh oil. If there are still debris, then we might have an issue. Most wear damage results in micro sized particles you can only really detect with UOA's unless there is full metal on metal contact without any lubrication as opposed to a "slow death" scenario.

But good work GT_Pony, I think you may have nailed the likely source of the BBQ tick and this also explains why in 95% of cases where it does occur it's not actually harmful, but more a nuisance issue. It will be interesting to see how many of us BBQ Tick guys can solve it with carbon powder additives and how many end up just living with it and how many get a new short block or do a self-funded re-built with forged internals, reusing the block and crank etc.

 

[spogshd]

I've asked for more photos, i will take a trip over by the weekend and have a look for myself

Sponsored