BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[TheLion]

Just for reference I have absolutely no idea if I can regain 1% of the losses between the engine and drive train friction by using Boron Nitride additives. It could be 0.5% or 2% gains or even a net 0. I'm simply suggesting there is likely a small benefit in recouping energy losses by reducing frictional due to the limits of motor oils boundary layer lubrication capabilities. Motor oil works best in hydrodynamic bearings not on cam lobes or chain guides. It does lybricate however its ability to reduce friction is far lower in those areas. In a hydrodynamic bearing (crank bearings) there is zero contact between metal parts. Thats why you can have cars with 100k miles on them, do a tear down and find stamping marks still legible on the bearing surface. Most metal in UOAs is from cam lobes, timing chains and Pistons/rings.

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[scotty]

Maybe the case for some... but for a lot of people, modding is part of the fun of owning a car like this. Ford's base offering is good, but it can be vastly improved upon.
This ticking noise clearly has nothing to do with mods anyway based on the info that @TheLion has gathered.

 

[GT Pony]

I dont disagree on that particular point however if it does not result in a function and reliability issue its by definition harmless. It very well could be that even 5.0s whose side to side clearances are in spec but closer to the max tick more that 5.0s whose side to side clearances are closer to nominal or the minimum.

You would have to look at my list. If a track noted he checked side to side clearances and the OP statef it I would have listed it next to their name. I dont recall any checks for side to side clearances on the big end but I do recall bearing, cam, piston and cylinder clearance checks being performed and no issues were found of those that reported the techs checking the original short blocks.

Hopefully @spogshd will get rod side clearance measurements (Post #30 above) on his friend's GT that was in the YouTube video showing the Tech rattling the rods side-to-side.

 

[TheLion]

That would be really nice to have. Does he have a calipers or depth gauge? Maybe he should just go buy a cheapo one and check it himself while it's up there with the pan off if the tech's won't do it. Here's what I'm thinking we are going to find however, it's not going to be out of tolerance, but closer to the maximum permissible tolerance.

This would explain why some cars have it louder than others but almost all of them run without a hick up and why even of the few that have had short blocks replaced, they couldn't find anything wrong or out of specification with the original short blocks.

 

[TheLion]

Here's the one's on the list that have or are having short blocks replaced:

@JGonvardi - Noise started after 40k miles, technician suspects cylinders 2 and 3. No further details at this time. No drive ability issues reported. Just the BBQ Ticking noise.

@kinand1988 - Very pronounced ticking noise at idle. Car was purchased used. Compression test showed 0% loss and couldn't find any scoring either. Locked out phasors and no change. Noise is strongest on the passenger side near the manifold. Techs found NOTHING out of tolerance on the bottom end, no abnormal wear on the bearings, crank, pistons or cylinder walls. 29k miles. Getting a new short block (needlessly I might add).

@CEHollier - BBQ tick started around 28k after an oil change. NOTE that he is tuned for E85 with an aggressive after market E85 tune (Lund) and stated there was a diagnosis of detonation issues resulting in cylinder wall damage. This is not a Ford failure but a Lund failure. Lucked out and is getting a new short block anyway...lucky dog!

@Enzo - Classic BBQ tick in his 2016 GT PP. New short block. "Crankshaft had double the clearance". But there's a lot of clearances on the crank, so is it side to side or rod bearing or main bearing? Unknown mileage and unknown clearance issue. Maybe this was side to side clearance, or it could have been a spun rod bearing.

@DCC - Reported that his father's Boss 302 developed a tick at 6,400 miles immediately following an oil change using MC 5W-50. Tick would go away after some driving and heat cycles. Dealer ended up replacing the engine. Just 400 miles on the new engine in the spring after an oil change again, MC 5W-50, it began making the same ticking noise. At SEMA they ran into Lake Speed Jr. of Joe Gibbs - Driven Oils and he knew of the issue. He suspected the issue was with the oil's additive packages rather than viscosity. They switched to Driven 5W-50 and have had no issue since, including a drive from Georgia to Carlisle PA.

@strike-eagle - 2017 GT Base. Very pronounced ticking noise. Intensity and frequency of noise increases drastically with RPM unlike the classic BBQ tick. (Note, I suspect this might be a rod bearing or piston, pretty bad). I don't believe this to be "classic BBQ ticking" and is reminiscent of another car with a diagnosed spun bearing. 4,500 miles, noise started around 1,000 miles. Is getting a whole new long block instead of the usual short block. Suspected source is from cylinders 2 and 3.

@astolt12 - 2017 GT PP. BBQ tick after first oil change. Seems to occur mostly in reverse going up-hill but no under load. Also occurs at idle in neutral. Removed Ford Performance x-pipe, no change. 2,500 miles. Changed oil to 0W-40 at 4,500 miles with Penzoil Ultra Platinum. No ticking after 0W-40. Also makes a "phfuffing sound at idle some times". Changed oil back to 5W-20, BBQ ticking returned. Eventually got a new short block. Found NOTHING out of spec with cam shaft, pistons or metal deposits in the oil. Likely there was nothing wrong with this engine. Ticking started back up with a brand new short block and the phfuffing sound. Ford Engineering reported that the failure rate of the 5.0 is less than 0.5%. Finally got to directly speak with a Ford Field Engineer who suggested XL-17 or carbon powder to thicken the oil that would resolve the issue (note the field engineer drove a black 2015 PP GT for what it's worth). Later the dealer received a call that the sound is allegedly due to cavitation of oil between the crank and block. Eventually received a whole new long block (second replacement)

@keltymd - Currently runs a 2017 GT PP. First GT had ticking after first oil change. Did engine tear down and found pitting and blueing on the cylinder walls. New short block and car was bought back.

@Oscifer - BBQ ticking sound, but increases in intensity and severity with RPM unlike classic BBQ tick. Started around 2,000 miles. Changed oil at 3,400 miles and became much more noticeable. Dealer reported the found Rod Bearing and Cylinder Wall damage. New short block at 3,800 miles. Blackstone UOI at 3,391 miles reports good (not sure if this was on the original short block or the new one).

Note that there are 51 Mustang GT owner's on this forum reporting a ticking noise or some variation of it. Each one is a little different and some of them are fairly minor while others more pronounced, yet others very severe and intense. So of those 51, only 9 have had a short block replaced.

1 of the 9 was heavily tuned and modified (sorry CEHollier, I can't count you because your mods may have caused the issues, including a bad mix of fuel)...
1 of the 9 had the exact same ticking noise come back on his father's Boss 302 with a completely new engine only to resolve it by using a different oil formula in the same viscosity...
1 of the 9 had a new short block that also started ticking then he managed to get a whole new long block on top of that and was finally happy...at least until that one starts ticking...
1 of the 9 informed us that the dealer didn't even find anything wrong with the original short block but just put something down to get Ford to approve the short block replacement on this very thread on page 1, Post #16
1 of the 9 is in the process of getting his short block replaced but has had ZERO drive ability issues reported. Just he noise. No CEL, no hesistation, no loss of power, no excessive oil consumption.

I believe so far that 5 of the 9 have not had any drive ability symptoms at all. Just the noise. So there very well may be others on the list with actual short block replacements who did NOT experience drive ability issues, CEL, excessive oil consumption etc. who had their short blocks replaced needlessly. It's also entirely possible the dealers listed non-existent issues just like in post # 16 of this thread to get approval so they weren't footing the bill for a $6,000 short block + the man hours to do the work.

I do believe @Oscifer had a CEL and misfire code, hesitation etc. accompany his issue which was pretty severe. There was one more that sounded pretty bad and the noise became extremely intense and frequent as RPM increased, my bet is a spun rod bearing on that one.

But I don't recall any others on the list reporting any symptoms other than "it makes this ticking noise, it must be defective!". If anyone has any new information to share on these failures listed, please do chime in. It just helps us see the picture more clearly.

 

[spogshd]

Its on the ramp so should have all the measures soon.
One more question, why do they call it the BBQ tick

 

[TheLion]

Because it sounds like a Propane / Gas Grill Igniter. So people associate it with barbecue grills. Another term is the "Type Writer Tick", more commonly used by the F-350 6.2L V8 guys. Sounds almost exactly the same and it's fairly common for those to get the distinct ticking sound as well. There's bunch of F-350's with the tick with well over 100,000 miles on them now without any issues.

 

[GT Pony]

That would be really nice to have. Does he have a calipers or depth gauge? Maybe he should just go buy a cheapo one and check it himself while it's up there with the pan off if the tech's won't do it. Here's what I'm thinking we are going to find however, it's not going to be out of tolerance, but closer to the maximum permissible tolerance.

Rod side clearance is very easy to measure. Just need a set of good feeler gauges. Stick gauges into the gap shown in Post #31 until the fit is snug, and see what the gauge thickness is that gave that snug fit.

 

[TheLion]

Good point, it's been a while since I had to gap plugs, completely forgot about feeler gauges. That would work just fine! I guess we'll see.

 

[michail71]

Because it sounds like a Propane / Gas Grill Igniter. So people associate it with barbecue grills. Another term is the "Type Writer Tick", more commonly used by the F-350 6.2L V8 guys. Sounds almost exactly the same and it's fairly common for those to get the distinct ticking sound as well. There's bunch of F-350's with the tick with well over 100,000 miles on them now without any issues.

I'd call it a ticker tape machine sound given the inconsistency of the ticking. I heard a sound effect of one on the radio that sounded exactly like my car.

BBQ ticking has a consistency to it that fits better with fuel injectors.

Mine started about 1000 miles or so after an oil change. I'm at 5000 miles now and it has gotten louder.

I'm wondering if I should take it in or just try some of the additives.

 

[TheLion]

I'd call it a ticker tape machine sound given the inconsistency of the ticking. I heard a sound effect of one on the radio that sounded exactly like my car.

BBQ ticking has a consistency to it that fits better with fuel injectors.

Mine started about 1000 miles or so after an oil change. I'm at 5000 miles now and it has gotten louder.

I'm wondering if I should take it in or just try some of the additives.

Most people take it in, get it document then just enjoy the car and if it bothers them enough they turn to Boron Nitride additives (aka Cera Tec or something similar). It's a common solution used by many many import owners. Mazda MX-5's, BMW's, Audis and Mercedes of certain models have various ticking, knocking or tapping noises that are quite bothersome to their owners. Modern oil formulas seem to exacerbate these issues as they provide less and less acoustic dampening (thinner viscosity and additive packages to aid in fuel economy and making more power, but at the cost of protection in high heat and sound dampening).

 

[michail71]

Adding my observations. Oil was changed at around 2700 miles to Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5-W20 with an M1 filter. The ticking started around 3700. I had been listening out for it because of all I've read on here.

The ticking is louder on the passenger side.

I don't really have any modes of significance. I have a JTL oil separator and Steeda strut tower brace and steeda hood struts. None of those are likely causing the sound. All were in place before the sound started.

It seems worse with the AC on but with the AC off and a slight touch to the throttle it comes back just as loud. It seems to peak at 1200 to 1400 RPM in neutral.

Sometimes it goes away but has been getting worse over time cold start or hot start doesn't seem to matter.

 

[michail71]

Most people take it in, get it document then just enjoy the car and if it bothers them enough they turn to Boron Nitride additives (aka Cera Tec or something similar). It's a common solution used by many many import owners. Mazda MX-5's, BMW's, Audis and Mercedes of certain models have various ticking, knocking or tapping noises that are quite bothersome to their owners. Modern oil formulas seem to exacerbate these issues as they provide less and less acoustic dampening (thinner viscosity and additive packages to aid in fuel economy and making more power, but at the cost of protection in high heat and sound dampening).

Have you heard any cases of 5-W30 helping?

I'm up to using Cera Tec (I used it before in my Mercedes) but my oil is at capacity already. A full treatment in this engine would require 600 ml of the Liqui Moli.

 

[spogshd]

Okay bare with me these were measured in thou's
3 of them were 22 thou and the other near to the fly was a whopping 24 thou (.6096) as opposed to (.5000)
.5mm =19,685 thou, so all were over the max tolerance.
On one of the oil holes had a burr and has scratched the bearing, i will post up a couple of photos later.

 

[spogshd]

photos, think you can just make out the burr in the first photo

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