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BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

TheLion

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I've asked for more photos, i will take a trip over by the weekend and have a look for myself
Take as many photos as you can of the bottom end such as all of the rod bearings, and all of the sides of the rods as well as the crank journals. The more can the better. I'll bet none of the rod big end sides have any signs of wear. Yet they are the source of the BBQ ticking. This explains also why the 6.2L in the F-350 does the same thing as does the 6.7L Power Stroke. They likely use very similar clearances, especially since Ford builds these engines on their modular engine assembly line.

They all share common 100 mm bore spacing. Due to production modularity all their engine variant, gas NA, gas FI, diesel FI share commonalities in dimensions. Ford settled on the modular concept back in the 1980's when they introduced the 4.6L and that's why we have the 5.0L, 6.2L and 6.7L V8's, the 2.0L, 2.3L and 2.5L I4's, 2.7L and 3.5L V6's. All have 100 mm bore spacing. They differ in stroke / deck height and cylinder count variations that result in these different displacements.

Common design architecture and clearances = common issues.
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TheLion

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Summary of Common Ford 5.0L Internal Engine Issues

1. Rod to Rod Side Clearances - can be out of the maximum specification or closer to the maximum of the specified limit. Causes intermittent and erratic ticking sound that typically doesn't change in intensity, but may occur more frequently as RPM increases in the lower end of the rev range, most often under light or no load. Sound most often is drowned out by other engine noise or disappears with an increase in RPM and oil pressure past approximately 2,500 RPM. Generally there are no functional issues associated with this noise despite it's alarming and irritating nature. May be misdiagnosed for out of round cylinder issues or other bottom end issues such as a spun rod bearing. This is presently believed to be the source of the benign but alarming "BBQ Tick".

Nominal Side to Side Clearance Specification: 0.0128 inches (0.325 mm)
Maximum Side to Side Clearance Specification: 0.0197 inches (0.500 mm)

2. Spun Rod Bearing - can result in an intermittent and random ticking or tapping/knocking sound at lower RPM ranges that increases in frequency and severity with an increase in RPM. These scenarios are often followed by a quick deterioration of engine operation/performance including CEL's, oil consumption and drive ability issues. Severity will increase rapidly with continued use of the engine until catastrophic failure results.

3. Out of Round Cylinder or Cracked Piston - typically results in a rattle or knocking sound that stays with the engine during operation. Most intense around a certain RPM range while crusing. This issue may be accompanied by excessive oil consumption, plug fouling or misfire codes and will certainly result in severe cylinder wall scoring which can be detected with a bore scope. Continued use of the car will result in an increase in severity of symptoms until catastrophic failure occurs. It is typically a result of cylinder wall distortion from either a manufacturing defect during the block sleeving process (most likely) or possibly from detonation in extremely high boost applications or with overly aggressive engine tuning (somewhat rare as the pistons normally give out first).

4. Broken IMRC Valves - results in a knocking or ticking sound on the top of the engine and may be mistaken for internal bottom end issues. Typically results in poor fuel economy, rough idle and drive ability issues including hesitation, surging or loss of power. Intake manifold assembly will need to be replaced in this case but is generally not harmful otherwise.

BBQ Tick Symptoms Notes:

A.) Ticking sound that is intermittent and random. It may occur one day but not another. It may vary in frequency and occurrences, especially with changes in temperature, engine load and engine RPM. It is a somewhat common problem associated with the Ford Coyote 5.0L V8 in the Mustang GT, the Ford 6.2L V8 used in the F-350 and the Ford 6.7L Power Stroke Diesel engine used in the F-350 Super Duty.

B.) Most often occurs after the first oil change but may also occur after each oil change while slowly reducing in severity as the oil is used. In some more severe cases however it is always present regardless of oil additive packages, oil viscosity and how much usage the oil sees.

C.) Synthetic oils tend to exacerbate this issue more, typically Motorcraft 5W-20 Semi-synthetic results in less intense noise, but may not eliminate it. Even using Ford's own Motorcraft Full Synthetic results in an increase in severity and frequency of this issue.

D.) Generally this issue is NOT harmful and will not result in any engine operational deficiencies including long term reliability despite it's alarming and worry some sound.

E.) The most effective solution next to a short block replacement is Carbon Powder Friction Modifiers such as Cera Tec or other similar high quality nano-particle Boron Nitride additives. Some modern motor oils are already using these additives. They are chemically inert and with a particle size small enough to prevent filter clogging. They are highly resistant to thermal oxidation and improve thermal conductivity while simultaneously reducing the frictional losses due to poor boundary layer lubrication associated with most modern oil lubricants, which is their greatest benefit. They also tend to significantly reduce mechanical noises, in this case the "BBQ Ticking" noise associated with excessive or maximum rod to rod side clearances. Boron Nitride however is also an excellent electrical insulator and while it typically reduces oil consumption and blow by, by giving the piston and oil control rings a better sealing surface, it can lead to spark plug fouling in some cases of severe oil consumption if such an issue already exists prior in the engine.
 

TheLion

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Given the plethora of information on this thread from my list of owners with the BBQ Tick to GT Pony's and spogshd's contributions regarding the rod end side to side clearance issues to the Cera Tec beta testers proving it as a possible solution, we absolutely need to get this thread stickied. It's probably one of the most enlightening and comprehensive attempts to uncover the 5.0 V8 issues for those few that do unfortunately have them and it could be a very valuable aid if some one needs to have warranty work done due to this issue in the rare instance it is necessary. Some dealer ships jump right in, but others are befuddled and hesitant.

This provides us some grounds to stand on and a place to look to prove there is an abnormal condition, being the side to side clearances are out of specification. While is is the first documented case, we have already had reports of entire sets of lash adjusters being replaced, pistons and cylinders coming back clean and rod bearings in pristine condition yet those same short blocks were ticking away...tick...tick...tick. There's only so many places to look.


+1 for sticky
 

CEHollier

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Thinking out loud. I wonder how many Coyote engines suffer from harmful issues?
 

spogshd

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+2 for sticky
 

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TheLion

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I just wanted to share some actual testing done regarding power. I've seen several tests showing power gains from certain oil formulas. Friction in an engine = losses. You loose nearly 50 hp just because of drive train resistance....50hp. Let that sink in for a moment. Here was some testing done on an older Porsche 993 Coupe, the testing was done in 2015, fairly recent, in Ontario Canada at a performance shop. Now there are multiple variables at work here, it's not a cut any dry "Cera Tec" is responsible for the results as they also performed an engine flush and switched to Ceratec Synthetic oil. I have no idea what they were running before, maybe it was synthetic, maybe not.

But it does illustrate how much lubricants affect the power output of as car engine and it's over all efficiency: https://www.liqui-moly.com/fileadmi.../RSP_Motorsports_Test_Results_Porsche_993.pdf

I'm simply suggesting that BN additives have been proven to increase the boundary layer lubrication of motor oils in every single test and research paper I've seen. Is it massive? No, but it's measurable, several percent in most cases. It's an anti-wear additive and friction reducer.

So it may have some small benefits to making good power as well, especially in an engine that requires a lot of boundary layer lubrication like the 5.0 that has 2x as many cam surfaces as the cam in block designs. I would expect the gains to be much smaller in newer lower mileage engines running good synthetics but still measurable. I'd expect them to be more noticeable in higher mileage engines with higher wear as it has restorative properties on the compression rings and oil control rings.

Higher compression engines with more cylinders and bearing surfaces will benefit the most as their frictional losses are the greatest. It should also have a preserving effect in newer cars and I've seen one or two performance instances (auto X) where it had a measurable effect on reducing oil temperatures.

I believe the reason why would be two fold 1. reduced friction = less heat 2. it's a very good thermal conductor = more efficient heat transfer. So it MAY help those who tend to run their 5.0's hard and for extended intervals by slightly reducing your average oil temperatures = better oil life, more consistent oil pressure and better protection.

Just some food for though for those with the BBQ tick that use it to quiet down the noise. I'll be giving it a try some time in the next couple of weeks once i get around to ordering it and having some spare time to drain a little oil. All testing I've seen that has any scientific merits, even if little has not shown any negative side effects and all have shown small gains in efficiency. So we'll see how it goes.

The only other issue I've seen is a few cases where it settles in the bottom of the oil pan in vehicles that are seasonal. Although that may only be the suspension liquid and not the hBN particles themselves as they are "worked" onto the metal surfaces through pressure and heat. Once the hBN content is fully worked into the engine's bearing surfaces (coated) it will remain until it wears off slowly over time.
 

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This is interesting, he has sent me another photo showing what I think is wear on the side of the crank, look how sharp it is, I don't think this is normal, what are your thoughts. Could it be that the burr on the oil hole has caused it to be forced against the side, is this possible.
The car has 10,000 miles so not that much really.
40370191_323982185023894_8576912324172972032_n.jpg
 

TheLion

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I'm not seeing anything that stands out. That bearing surface looks pristine. If it was a spun bearing it would be severely scarred or even pitted. Especially with 10k if he's been driving it.

Here's what a spun rod bearing looks like in very short order (this is from a Porshe with an engine failure):

IMG_19111252293098.jpg


67829d1188368536-runes-3-0-rebuild-thread-img_3058-1.jpg


It also results in a constant "rattle" or knocking sound that just gets worse and more intense with engine RPM. It's nothing like the BBQ tick. So far in the photos, that engine's bottom end is 100% good to go (your friend's Mustang) with almost zero wear and tear. Detonation can also cause a spun rod bearing assuming the piston and crank don't fail first. It will more or less hammer the fluid film out of the bearing when it happens and cause metal on metal contact = not good. In that case you may have scarring on one half of the bearing but not the other.

It's hard to tell in the photo what the side of the crank looks like, but if it had severe wear it would more less look pitted, scarred and blued like a brake rotor your rode too hard for too long.

Here's another example (not as extreme) of a spun rod bearing:

941236.jpg


941235.jpg


941231.jpg


Hopefully this clarifies that what we are seeing in your photos are nothing like the above examples. The second set of photos above is from a VW bug of all cars.
 

TheLion

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In fact, the very faint lines on the crank I see appear to be machining marks from the machining process. Most rod bearings are stamped, not machined, and made from aluminum. Some more exotic rod bearings are tri-metal concoctions, but more or less they ride entirely on fluid film. However there is a small amount of metal on metal contact during cold starts, while the engine is cranking over and the first maybe cycle or two after combustion starts because the rotational velocity is NOT sufficient for the hydrodynamic bearing to pressurize as the two opposing fluid films are not yet moving fast enough nor is there enough oil flow. So even in normal bearings that are working 100% without issue you'll see some very minor surface scuffing.

But you should never see material transfer like in the photos above where it bonded the aluminum bearing material to the crank surface. That's an indication of severe heat and friction. It more or less welds it. That happens frequently in machining to drill bits at the tip if no lubrication is used and the temps get too high. So far not seeing anything wrong other than the clearances are out of whack. But it doesn't appear to be from wear, just that it was manufactured that way.
 

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Does anyone know what the spec is for the rod ends.
I looked in the service manual and it doesn't show any dimensional specs for the width of the rod big end, or for the width of the crankshaft journal. Those are the two dimensions that are going to determine what the assembled rods-to-crankshaft rod end play is going to be. I noticed the specs for the V6 used in the S550 has even tighter rod end clearance specs than the Coyote V8 ... thought that was interesting since you never hear of any V6 with the BBQ Tick issue.
 

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This is interesting, he has sent me another photo showing what I think is wear on the side of the crank, look how sharp it is, I don't think this is normal, what are your thoughts. Could it be that the burr on the oil hole has caused it to be forced against the side, is this possible.
The car has 10,000 miles so not that much really.
40370191_323982185023894_8576912324172972032_n.jpg
Here's my take on that photo. It looks like the edges of the crankshaft journal are "under cut" near the sides ... that is the trough like area you can see in the attached annotated photo with the red arrow pointing to the under cut. The blue arrow shows the total width of the crankshaft journal, and when the two rods are assembled to the crankshaft the rod side clearance is dependent on the width of both rods and the width of the crank journal. So it can easily become a tolerance "stack-up" issue if these parts are not machined accurately. It would be very interesting to somehow obtain the dimensional specifications for the rod big end width and the crank journal width to see what parts are causing the excessive rod side clearance. A machine shop that rebuilds Coyote engines might have that information. Machining of these parts is pretty damn precise, so it doesn't take much to make the assembled parts out of spec.

I also agree with @TheLion that there doesn't seem to be any abnormal wear going on. As suggested, look at the sides of the rod big ends and the sides of the crank journals to see of there are any slight wear marks where those parts can touch - see red arrow in last photo below.

S550 Coyote Crank Journal-2a.jpg



You can see below that the width of the rod bearing (red arrow) is smaller than the width of the rod end cap (blue arrow), so it's the sides of the rod big end that can make contact with the sides of the crankshaft journal area - as demonstrated in the YouTube video you posted showing the Tech moving the pair of rods side-to-side and making a tick, tick, tick noise. The red arrow on the 2nd photo below shows the side area of the rod big end that can make contact with the side of the crank journal. Typically the width of the rod big end are ground/sized to be a certain width, and that along with the total width of the crank journal all dictates what the rod side clearance is when all the parts are assembled together.

S550 Coyote Rod Bearing-a.jpg


S550 Coyote Con Rod-a.jpg
 
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TheLion

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Absolutely and that's why in cases where the BBQ Tick is due to these clearances it's not harmful despite the fact that may sound absolutely awful and one would swear the engine has a major problem. The rods are not heavily loaded horizontally, they are loaded vertically. Any side to side deflection is more or less very minor and they drift back and fourth across the crank journal within their limits of travel and make contact with each other in the middle and the sides of the crank journal. Kind of like a bobbin on an open face fishing reel, going back and fourth.

This explains the noise and why it's generally not harmful, intermittent and sensitive to temperature changes (often doesn't happen on cold start when your oil viscosity is 5-6 x thicker) and why it's likely that a large percentage of coyotes do it but those that are closer to the maximum or just beyond the maximum tolerance make the ticking sound quite audibly. I'll bet if you used acoustic filtering you could pick up the "BBQ Tick" on every single 5.0, 6.2 and 6.7 out there, but it's too quiet to detect above other engine noise when the parts are in spec. If I ever get an oil pan leak, I'll be sure to check mine out just to see where they lie.

Either way, with tighter clearances the oil flowing out of the hydrodynamic rod bearings is going to normally cushion them so they don't really wander back and fourth at all, not enough to make contact. It's not just the V6's that don't "BBQ Tick", neither does the Ecoboost 2.3L have that issue. With the 2.3L TDI engine, almost all of the failures on this forum are due to people running too much boost and causing detonation and piston failure followed by bent or broken rods. I even had a theory (and still do) that these tuners were inducing LSPI. Most of these engines would run completely fine, then said owner fills up at a gas station, takes off from the parking lot and the engine just dies right then and there. No boom, not pinging was ever heart during driving etc. It just suddenly lets go. There are many many cases of that. Sounds exactly like LSPI pre-detonation and at higher boost it's that much more destructive. But I digress on the 2.3L failures.

If you look at my list of GT owners I found (yes I realize there are probably a few more coming out of the woodwork here and there), it gives us a pretty clear picture that 95% of the cases have no impact on engine function. Most owners report no drive ability issues of any type, which baffles them because the engine sounds like it's going to let go, yet it operates absolutely flawlessly. Mine ticks mildly some times when starting from a stop, but it's very faint in general. I get a bit of lifter tick at idle, but nothing so far that sounds abnormal.

Big end rod side to side clearance issues also explain why some report that as mileage piles on the ticking subsides. Yes oil thins with fuel dilution, but it thickens with boil off. Most off the shelf synthetic oils I've seen on average are still around 10~13% evaporation loss (aka NOACK volatility),. And a Port Injected engine is NOT prone to fuel dilution like TDI engines. The 2.3L's thin oil, but I suspect the 1st and 2nd Generation 5.0's thicken it as boil off is likely a bigger factor. And unless you get a lot of blow by there shouldn't be an excessive amount of acids in it either. A slight thickening of the oil after 2k~3k miles could be enough to eliminate the BBQ tick in some with mild cases like mine and most others. That's my only explanation as to why it would "quiet down" after use after every oil change.

It also explains why Cera Tec seems to work miracles. It's provided that layer of Hexagonal Boron Nitride "cushion" which increases thermal transfer of metallic surfaces. It also provides tighter fitment as the hexagonal boron nitride (hBN) tends to fill in the porous surfaces of metal it comes in contact with, thus increasing compression, reducing blow by and enhancing oil control ring function. It also has a positive effect on thermal transfer, so it's going to increase thermal conductivity and fight oil thinning due to temperature. All of these work together to quiet things down. I think we have a winner. Good work guys!
 

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By the way, I went back through the pictures and found this one:

Look at the side of the crank journal on the RIGHT. It looks flawless. It's coated in clean oil. There's no pitting, scarring or blueing of any kind. It's immaculate. This engine has ZERO signs of mechanical problems other than the "BBQ Ticking" noise. At least from the photos we've seen. I'll bet my bottom dollar the sides of the big ends of the rods look just as pristine....tick...tick....tick. I'd also bet that "cera tec" would have resolved or dramatically lessened the issue.

In fact, why not do just that? Replace just the rods with some new OE ones. Check the side to side clearances before everything gets bolted back up. Or if he's really strapped for cash, just re-assemble everything, run Cera Tec or a similar hBN additive every 20k miles and be done with it and enjoy the car.

View attachment 301204
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michail71

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I think you solved the problem for Ford.
 

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okay like i said, I took a trip over today and did a small video of what I saw. You will see a bit of blueing on the ends of the journals nearest the fly, This is the only one that have had the rod ends taken off as this was the worst one for side to side.
The inspector who is coming to see this thinks there is end play in the crank its self, so as you push the clutch in the crank moves back and forth.
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