BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[offroadkarter]

- snip -

I'm most likely going to dump a bottle of Ceratec in and see what happens. Conveniently as I left for work today, my A/C completely died. I'm guessing the evaporator took a shit, so I'll be calling the dealer tomorrow and ranting off a list of things I want fixed before I get the car back (A/C and driveline vibe are two biggest things). I'm also going to let the regional field engineer know about this so hopefully he will make sure they won't just pop another driveshaft in and call it done.

I'm so glad I didn't go ahead and pull the trigger on a Lund tune the other month, I'd be up shit creek between all this stuff. I'm thinking of looking into an extended warranty once the car is back from the dealer and sticking with dealer installed ford racing parts for now. I guess I have enough other things to modify.

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[TheLion]

I see no reason to go with an after market tune unless you want to run Ethanol Blends, Race Gas or Nitrous etc. If your running 91 or 93 pump gas the aftermarket doesn't really have much on the Ford Performance offerings. Nothing meaningful and durability is going to be better with the Ford Performance offerings.

Warranties are there for a reason. Both the Power Pack 2 and Power Pack 3 are exceptionally well put together packages with seamless function. There's more than just peak power, especially on a road car, drive ability matters quite a bit and the Ford Performance offerings give you that whole package deal that's seamlessly integrated. I look at them as a "factory hot tune" because without Ford they wouldn't exist. This is what Ford could have given you if they didn't have that internal requirement for low octane fuels in a high compression NA V8 engine.

But that's just my observations. Reliability seems to be a secondary consideration to most people when they get the "gotta have more power" bug...at least until they reap the issues associated with running on the very edge of safe operation. One variable (fuel quality mostly) changes a little more than expected and viola, piston damage or a bent rod. Now what? I'm sure that V8 GT looks great on a tow truck...but I digress and back to the issue at hand, Boron Nitride additives in nano particle sizes do not appear to have any negative effects in a normally operating engine and more or less offer an enhancement in boundary layer lubrication where the majority of internal engine friction occurs.

Just look at drive train losses alone. Typically a manual transmission and drive train wastes around 10%~12% of the engine's available power at the crank. So in a Power Pack 2 Second Generation 5.0L V8 with a cat back exhaust on 93 octane, which will make around 465 HP at the crank +/- 5hp, we are loosing anywhere from 46.5 hp to 55.8 hp just in drive train inefficiencies alone! My wife's Prius C makes 99 hp...that's nearly half a Prius engine in losses.

Internal engine inefficiencies are also part of the equation of losses and reducing frictional losses can pose some benefits in making safe, clean power. I'm estimating that between 5 hp and 10 hp can be re-gained through the combination of synthetic fluids and Boron Nitride friction modifiers in both the engine and transmission which affect boundary layer lubrication, something oils are NOT good at. Manual trans operates almost entirely on boundary layer lubrication, so I think that friction reduction may actually be most beneficial there given it's a point of high losses.

Real engineering is rarely about a golden egg solution. The ultimate end results are typically a series of small enhancements combined together. Lubricates plate an absolutely critical role in making good power and I see no reason to use higher viscosity oils than necessary especially when we have access to modern Boron Nitride or similar additives that address base oil's lubricating weaknesses. So lube up gents, just don't get carried away ;-). All things in moderation!

 

[Rick#7]

So just for curiosity, why is it called a "BBQ tick"? I've read several of these threads looking for where that name came from, and even googled that question, but can't find the reason this noise is referred to as the BBQ tick.

 

[TheLion]

Because its sounds similar to a Grill Igniter, which many people associate with barbecue's. There are other names as well, the "type writer" tick is a common term use for the Ford F-350's with the 6.2L V8 which has a very similar ticking sound at idle and low RPM. It's completely normal even if it sounds like something might be wrong. It's just a noisy engine and it's far from the only one.

Go on the BMW or Audi forums and you'll find all sorts of different noises that can be obnoxious or sound abnormal that most often end up being benign.

 

[usgiorgi]

Because its sounds similar to a Grill Igniter, which many people associate with barbecue's. There are other names as well, the "type writer" tick is a common term use for the Ford F-350's with the 6.2L V8 which has a very similar ticking sound at idle and low RPM. It's completely normal even if it sounds like something might be wrong. It's just a noisy engine and it's far from the only one.

Go on the BMW or Audi forums and you'll find all sorts of different noises that can be obnoxious or sound abnormal that most often end up being benign.

Why do you keep insisting that this is a normal sound even after Ford has started to replace short blocks with these sounds?

 

[TheLion]

Did you bother to look at my list of car's with the BBQ tick and the responses from those on it? I'm now finding out that of the very few cars that did have short blocks replaced (maybe 5 out of 30+), only 2 of them had actual defects and those cars also had drive ability issues such as CEl, excessive oil consumption etc.

Of the few remaining, nothing. Nodda, zip. Other than the noise. Then when they did get their short blocks replaced, the techs that did a tear down found NOTHING wrong with the short blocks. Cylinders were fine without any scoring. Rings and pistons were fine. Rod bearings were perfectly within spec. I even had one OP tell me that the dealer just wrote down made up issues on the paperwork even thought they found nothing actually wrong after pulling the short block to get the replacement authorized and paid for by Ford......

Example 1: Scotty got the BBQ tick at 5k miles. Ran the car until 12k miles with the BBQ tick before super charging. He believed the dealer that nothing was actually wrong and while it's bothersome, it's not an issue. So he super charged the car with a Rousch super charger kit at 12k miles and is now at 25k miles with the BBQ tick and a 670 HP Rousch super charger....car runs fine still.

Example 2: I forget the OP's name, you can look it up on my big list of BBQ tick GT owners, but his father bought a Boss 302. Got the BBQ tick. Zero drive ability issues, just the noise. Eventually he got the entire long block replaced. Guess what? New long block got the BBQ tick just like the original after a few thousand miles. He was pissed. But he eventually had a Ford Field engineer look at the car. Suggested carbon powder additive aka Boron Nitride. Nothing new, it's been around for a decade and a half and addresses boundary layer lubrication deficiencies inherent in all modern engine oils (they suck at it). So he used it (Cera Tec). Ticking is gone. car still runs the same, but no noise.

There's more examples of hysterical stupidity over a harmless but obnoxious noise if you want them. Look at the list of BBQ tick owners and their stories, symptoms and solutions. I believe all 5.0's do it to some degree. But most are like mine where you can only hear it with the windows down, music off and next to a sound barrier which is a somewhat rare condition. Then you have to actually have hearing good enough to detect it or be picky enough to notice it. A very scant few have it loud enough it's easily audible all the time.

Ford produced 120,000 V8 GT's from 2015-2017 and 600,000 F-150's from 2015-2017 alone. So if there is some mass problem, why hasn't there been something that's come out about it? Honda got reamed for excessive oil consumption on nearly all of their cars from 2009 to 2013. There's 1.5 million Honda's affected by issues with their oil control ring design that causes them to start eating oil after carbon fouling. There's a huge law suite for it. But nothing over the BBQ tick...tick...tick..

I think the real mystery for me isn't the BBQ tick. It's why in the world are you still posting on this forum. You traded in your Mustang for a Charger. Go enjoy your car and post on the Charger forums about Charger specific issues. I'm sure you'll find plenty of post about there as this car and platform isn't really relevant to you any longer.

 

[IronG]

Why do you keep insisting that this is a normal sound even after Ford has started to replace short blocks with these sounds?

Maybe its because it is a typical sound for this engine and that none of the replaced engines have shown the noise had anything to do with its replacement? I would say that at this point no one can say definitively if any specific sound is cause for alarm. Until then, you can speculate anything you want to fit your purpose. Don't believe or believe a tick is an engine issue, its up to you. I'm pretty sure every engine ever made has some unusual noise that could be construed as a problem. History shows that noises in general are not related to any specific issue. Sure there are exceptions and there are noises an engine should never make, but problems are almost always accompanied by some other symptom. Shudder, oil consumption, loss of power etc. So until some real data is revealed to show the tick is a problem, its not a problem...right?

 

[TheLion]

All people who bought at 2016 Scat pack Hemi 392 MUST SELL THEIR CAR IMMEDIATELY. THEY ARE ALL DEFECTIVE AND WILL EXPLODE ON YOU SOON. This just in, we have several rattling and ticking 392's at low RPM when accelerating, it's gonna BLOW and SOON, I just know it: https://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330353

You know how I know it's gonna blow up? Because the dealer said it's normal and didn't replace his short block! It's proof right there that all 392's are garbage and the Dodge make crap cars that just randomly fall apart at a moments notice and they are hiding something and all 392's are defective...all Dodge owners are doomed!

But seriously, I grow quiet annoyed at foolish paranoia, but hey this is the internet right? Because some one is convinced there's a massive defect in Ford's V8 that's being covered up it must be true. I guess Dodge must be covering up some massive defects too and GM. Boy these American companies, we should have all bought Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes...

All manufacturers have defects. All designs have quirks. The 5.0L V8 from ford makes a type writer type ticking sound on some engines that's harmless albeit annoying and alarming at times. There's a solution if it bother's you enough, carbon powder oil additives. It's chemically inert, enhances boundary layer lubrication which oil's suck at anyways, is commonly available and very affordable.

There may be a solution to the Hemi 392 low RPM rattle. Maybe it's carbon powder too, maybe it's not. Maybe it's normal, maybe it's a defect (from the posts it seemed to be a common quirk of that engine). There's one OP on the Charger forum that seems to have pretty well documented this as just the nature of the beast and if you want to stop it...use a specific lubricant blend that helps address that harmless but irritating noise.

You want cheap? Ford, Dodge and Chevy got you covered. You want reasonably well designed? Ford, Dodge and Chevy got you covered. You want fast? Ford, Dodge and Chevy got you covered. You want quiet and clank free? Ummm...Mercedes, BMW and Audi got you covered once you get past the $70k price point...sorry Ford, Dodge and Chevy fans, clank free is not in the nature of Fast, Fun and AFFORDABLE without a little custom work.

But I do believe the 5.0 will actually benefit performance wise more from increased boundary layer lubrication compared to the 392 (6.4L) and 6.2L cam in block designs. Why? Because it has 2x as many moving parts that rely on boundary layer lubrication as the cam in block designs. Friction reduction has a greater impact on power to the crank and fuel efficiency than those designs.

Coyote V8: 4 cam phasors, 4 cams, 32 valves, 32 valve guides, 32 cam lobes, 32 hydraulic finger followers (lash adjusters), 4 timing chains (2 short, 2 long), 4 timing chain guides, 5 main bearings, 8 big end and 8 small end rod bearings, 8 pistons and 1 oil pump.

Dodge 6.4L and Chevy 6.2L: 1 cam phasor, 1 cam, 16 cam lobes, 1 timing chain, 2 timing chain guides, 16 hydraulic lash adjusters, 16 valves, 16 valve guides, 5 main bearings, 8 big end and 8 small end rod bearings, 8 pistons and 1 oil pump.

There's a lot more boundary layer lubrication going on in the a 5.0 than a 6.2 or 6.4L on the top end. Bottom end's are not much different in terms of number of components, mostly sizing varies based on stroke and bore etc. 5.0's respond very well to good quality lubrication and they also seem to run hot and suffer easily from oil vaporization. That makes sense. It has a lot of moving parts and is the most prone to it. I'd imagine most high revving DOHC V8's are prone to it but also see similar benefits from higher quality lubricant performance.

 

[TheLion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatpack16 View Post
I have a 2016 Scat Pack and I just had mine in the dealership too with a ticking at idle and accelerating. I have a 2015 Ram too with a ticking but a normal Hemi tick but nothing like this one they changed the oil and it went away but it has a belt whining now when say idling through a parking lot. I've been having problems with my car already it had to get a new transmission oil pan but i didn't have any stains in my driveway or under my car. If i was you I'd check the oil to see for metal I don't trust the dealership by me because it took 2 weeks for the pan to come in and when I got it back it started with the ticking and the whining.
The Hemi Tick will continue as that is the nature of these cars. We have written about this problem myriad of times. It is because of the characteristics that it will continue.

https://www.chargerforums.com/forums/...d.php?t=123111

If you want to stop the Hemi Tick for good, use ACES IV and QuantumBlue Custom Blended Lubricants. We have solved it for almost 20,000 cars/trucks.

Give us a call and stop the noise. Your dealership will simply claim NPF....no problem found. Normal noise. Noise like this is not normal and can be addressed.

Regards,

Brian
BND Automotive LLC

440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

Just thought I'd share this for some kicks and giggles . But @usgiorgi bought a Scat Pack Charger so he's guaranteed not to have any issues and he keeps posting on this forum because he feels so bad for all of us suckers that bought a first gen S550 Mustang because Ford is covering up their secret mass 5.0 defect. Poor, poor us. Woe is us!

But wait, doesn't that post say they helped solve the Hemi tick for over 20,000 Dodge cars and trucks that have it? 20,000....my list has 30 Mustang GT's on it with the BBQ tick...Dodge all the way (with a rebel yell)! I'm sorry, but that just belongs in the Fail Army.

I don't normally get into sarcasm and emotional outbursts, but I couldn't help myself this time around.

But on a serious note, I think the Charger Scat Pack (2015+) is an awesome car. I almost bought one, but it's weight kept me away and I wanted a manual for track / auto x / HPDE. I wanted something that had more of a blend of handling and power than a just straight line power. They don't handle bad by any means, but you can't get around a nearly 500 lb weight difference. 100 lbs...not such a big deal, but 500? There's just no Atkins diet strict enough for the charger.

The Mustangs and Camaros will always out track a Charger or Challenger. And if your making the same power, they will out drag them as well. But there really is not this car is better than that car in every aspect, they each have their pros and cons. Cost, size, handling, power, mod potential, appearance, quirks / issues etc.

I got my GT for a really good price. 27k + tax and title. 5,600 miles on it. Corsa Extreme cat back already on it. Window tint already on it. 100k extended power train warranty as it was a Ford Certified used car. Performance Package (good starting point for a true track capable car) and rear park assist only, optioned lightly to keep weight under 3800 lbs (PP only GT should weigh in at 3780 lbs, BMR's PP only GT scaled in at 3734 lbs if I recall but scales can vary a bit).

Remove about 45 lbs with some light weight wheels and exhaust (even the Corsa Sport with it's excessively sized 3" pipes is 11lbs lighter than stock) and you into the 3750 lbs territory, about same weight as a 1LE or GT350).

The car has some immense potential with very little work over all, just some careful choices / selections. Here's something to give you a clear picture of the variants of the big 3 pony cars and how they stack up power to weight wise. Keep in mind that the Auto's are either 8 speeds or 10 speeds unless it's a 2015-2017 GT which is a 6 speed. Obviously 8A's and 10A's are going to more efficiently use their available power in a drag race.

Stock PP GT power to weight ratio 3780 lbs / 435 hp = 8.8 lbs per hp.

Stock Base GT power to weight ratio 3705 lbs / 435 hp = 8.51 lbs per hp.

Power Pack 2 Base GT power to weight ratio 3705 lbs / 456 hp = 8.12 lbs per hp.

Power Pack 2 PP GT power to weight ratio 3780 lbs / 456 hp = 8.28 lbs per hp.

Stock 2016 Camaro 2SS power to weight ratio 3718 lbs / 8.17 lbs per hp.

Stock 2016 Camaro 1SS 1LE power to weight ratio 3747 lbs / 455 hp = 8.23 lbs per hp.

Stock Charger RT Scat Pack power to weight ratio 4345 lbs / 485 hp = 8.95 lbs / hp (worse ratio than a stock first gen S550, but that 8 speed auto makes the most of it with a good 12.4 second 1/4 mile run stock, power to weight isn't everything).

Super charged PP GT (3780 lbs + 150 lbs) / 670 lbs = 5.86 lbs per hp.

Stock Charger Hell Cat 4575 lbs / 707 hp = 6.47 lbs per hp.

Stock Camaro ZL1 = 3837 lbs / 650 hp = 5.90 lbs per hp.

Power Pack 2 takes off around 0.3 to 0.4 seconds on the 1/4 mile from stock figures. Factory tuning was excessively conservative. Fastest stock PP GT was MT and ran 12.8, so Power Pack 2 puts that car around 12.5~12.4. Same as the other two. 2018's GT's run 12.6's bone stock for the manual with overly tall gearing and 12 flats for the 10A. Put some DR's on it and that thing will fly.

I didn't buy mine for drag however or I would have gone auto, but that at least gives you an idea that a manual GT with just a power pack 2 can run with an 8A Charger or 8A SS in a straight line. A $600 mod that's both emissions legal and covered under warranty.

Braski ran 11.86 on his 2016 manual PP GT with just a few mods: Big / Littles, Power Pack 2, Cat Back Exhaust, IRS updates. Nothing extreme. That's pretty darn impressive that a Manual first Gen S550 ran faster than the fastest 8 Speed Auto SS with Drag Radials in -800 DA conditions with maybe $1,500 worth of parts not counting tires / wheels (which both cars had). So that's bookin' for a 6 speed manual first gen S550.

Yah, I post a lot. Get over it.

 

[scotty]

Funny you bring my story up @TheLion

Here we are today with just over 40,000km on the car and just over 20,000km on the blower install... the noise is no worse than it was at 8000km when it first appeared - or at least when I actually first noticed it. Heck, with the beating I gave the car at the Woodward Dream Cruise a little over a week ago, I'm genuinely surprised it didn't get worse...

I listened to some of those hemi tick videos .... some sound pretty similar to the 5.0. Just not as loud. Very interesting. The fact that they also cured it with an oil additive similar to Ceratec tells us all that this is probably a lot more commonplace that we may realize.

BTW - Love your power-to-weight calculations ... Roush 5.0 shitting all over everything else. It's true too, because so many people assume I am bone stock other than a catback exhaust and end up getting their asses handed to them Here kitty....

 

[TheLion]

It's really interesting what Ford did with the 2nd gen 5.0. It has so much to gain with the factory internals. There are Mustang owners who switched over to SS's because they weren't satisfied with the stock performance of the GT's. Compared to the SS it's more of a "grand touring" car like it's badge say in stock form.

However once you start going FI, it's the opposite. There are guys switching over to the Mustang because it responds so well to boost compared to the LT1 which gets quite expensive. Can you get some really big power out of the LT1 with boost? Absolutely, sky is the limit. Problem is cost. It gets very expensive very quickly because it wasn't really designed with FI loads in mind from the factory where that was built right into the 2nd gen 5.0 from the factory.

Same thing with the Power Packs. I think Ford new they didn't have time to really tweak the power out of the 5.0. So they did the next best thing, went the safest routes by convservatively tuning the engine but building in the hardware (most critical components) for substantial power adders. 45 HP in the mid-range with Power Pack 2 which is just an ECU calibration, throttle body and intake. That's not very common to pull that much power out of an NA engine on 95% factory hardware.

Not only that but it's emissions legal and covered under the Ford Performance supplemental warranty and it does NOT void the new vehicle limited warranty so long as the issue is NOT specifically caused by the modification. So unless the cause can be proven, my 100k power train warranty is still in tact and I actually have grounds to stand on in a warranty repair dispute.

Ford more or less leaned on Ford Performance / Roush for those that care about raw performance. I don't think their project schedule allowed them as much time as they'd like. Especially with engine development of the 2nd gen. They chose not to go with DI because of emissions, the R&D Engine developers didn't believe they had the time to make DI work AND pass emissions on the project schedule. So they went the safe route and kept it Port Injected. Now for the 3rd iteration of the 5.0 it's DI and Port and makes the same power as Power Pack 2's mid-range with Power Pack 3's top end.

It walks all over a modified 2nd gen 5.0 or LT1. While the 6.4L hemi still makes 25 hp more stock, it's power band is much shorter and peakier. So there isn't really an average power advantage despite it's higher peak. The 3rd gen 5.0 is making over 400 whp from 5,500 RPM all the way to 7,500 RPM.

Power Pack 2 2nd Gen 5.0 and the LT1 can do that for about 750 RPM...and yes, there's one heck of a super charger kit that's also emissions legal and warrantied. Neither Dodge nor Chevy offer that as an upgrade, you need to buy it from the factory FI, you can't upgrade later down the road which really sucks for a lot of SS and Charger / Challenger owners as they have to void their warranty if they want to upgrade down the road.

 

[GT Pony]

Then when they did get their short blocks replaced, the techs that did a tear down found NOTHING wrong with the short blocks. Cylinders were fine without any scoring. Rings and pistons were fine. Rod bearings were perfectly within spec.

But did they measure the rod side clearance? I think Techs over look that measurement. All they do is look for "damage", but an engine tick can happen without creating damage if part clearances are out of spec.

 

[TheLion]

I dont disagree on that particular point however if it does not result in a function and reliability issue its by definition harmless. It very well could be that even 5.0s whose side to side clearances are in spec but closer to the max tick more that 5.0s whose side to side clearances are closer to nominal or the minimum.

You would have to look at my list. If a track noted he checked side to side clearances and the OP statef it I would have listed it next to their name. I dont recall any checks for side to side clearances on the big end but I do recall bearing, cam, piston and cylinder clearance checks being performed and no issues were found of those that reported the techs checking the original short blocks.

 

[accel]

I'm already running BG Syncromesh II

I got bg syncro II as gearbpx seemed a little too noisy to me, but was lazy to replace and several thouthand miles later do not find mt all that noisy. maybe it brone in.

is there any other reason to have it but quiet mt82 down?

 

[TheLion]

Reduce friction. Manual gearboxes rely almost entirely on boundary layer lubrication which oils are not good at. Thats why you loose between 45 to 55 up jist because of drive train friction. Reducing friction reduces losses. If I gain 1% efficiency for a bottle of friction modifier its worth it to me for the low cost.

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