SCCA CAM-C Thread

[mavisky]

So far it has worked out great, ton of these guys showed up (sarcasm of course).

There were several people that strongly advocated for wings and not sure what the reason was but they had (I think) JG from GRM weigh in as well (nothing against him).

I don't think participation has increased much or at all nationally, locally nothing changed, you get all the variety like always.

Agreed. All it did for us was tank our PAX for no reason. Noone new showed up

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[kz]

I was just saying that them allowing those cars is what lead to the rules being thr way they are. I still haven't seen anyone truly build a car from the ground up to dominate CAM-C.

Boardkat (who started this thread I think) sort of tried, as some point he turned towards Optima events but I think with all his mods had serious reliability issues with his car.

 

[kz]

Agreed. All it did for us was tank our PAX for no reason. Noone new showed up

I wrote a letter arguing against it but I am pretty sure that I was a minority and they've had their minds set. Once allowed, it won't get taken back unfortunately.

 

[mavisky]

Btw - -3.6 degrees camber on Steeda plates without touching towers with a hole saw.

Don't know why others are seeing some really low numbers with them.

I'm at -3.2 without touching the tower on one side but a little close on the other. Makes me wonder if our cars could benefit from some front subframe alignment dowels similar to what Steeda offers in the rear. Not super familiar with how the whole front subframe attaches though so may be talking out of my ass here.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Boardkat also had issues I think with the driver mod (w/r/t autocross at least). His car was cool tho. I talked to him after he had a bad national event in 2021, and I think and he had about given up on autocross. Hitting too many cones.

the PAX changed before the rules changes were announced (IIRC), so I don’t think you can blame speculation on what wings might do for the PAX adjustment. Generally PAX is changed based on last years results, not predictively, but IDK.

i do think the PAX is too harsh, but then we do have that one alien in my local region (Otis) who keeps proving its not that far off, if you have the right combination of car and driver. 70+ mph in 2nd gear, 6 or 700 hp. Great rear diff, and proper suspension setup.

Shotz tried that in 2022 with a ZL1 but I out drove him on day 2. He complained about the front-top heavy blower and this year he’s bringing a ground-up SS 1LE build, which should be fast.

 

[kz]

I think pax changed a bit before rules change and then got revised (CAM-C up by 0.009 I think) after the change.

 

[mustanghammer]

I ran in ESP with my '79 Pace Car in the early/mid 90's (not as long as you or at as high of a level). I can't remember what the rates were, but I was on the Ford Performance springs. In retrospect, I think we ran those cars stiff because the suspension geometry was so bad. To quote Chapman, "Any suspension will work as long as you don't let it." Your numbers are extremely high in a mathematical sense, but they might have been a better compromise than dealing with that mess of a suspension. At those rates, you're seeing the lion's share of suspension movement in the tire sidewall. I don't see how this approach would work with our cars. If I had that car to do over, I'd take a significantly different approach. That was the car that started me down the road of not liking oversteer. It's not that I was scared or whatever. It's just when you're trying to gather the thing up all the time, it's hard to go fast. Drifts look cool, but they're slow.

CAM is beginning to lose its way a bit, if you ask me. It *should* be a class where a sporty daily-driver is competitive. They're consistently moving away from this model, unfortunately.

P.S. A008'S FTW!

I remember A008s!!

So Go-Karting a Fox mustang was pretty common early on in A-Sedan road racing for the reasons you stated. Eventually they figured out how to "fix" the cars within the rules and spring rates came down and tire life got better

In my case, all of the Fox-Body issues had been fabricated out of the car. Rear suspension was a three link, the front had 2.5" drop spindles, and all of the suspension bind was removed. The car still had body roll and weight transfer but it maintained geometry and traction while this was happening.

I still have a stock suspension Fox body and anything over a 275lb rear spring is a death wish.

Regarding CAM - 120% agree. One way to help it stay reasonable is to raise the minimum weight to 3600-3700. Where it is now invites purpose built cars that reach minimum weight using allot of spendy body parts

One year at Solo Nationals C Prepared had the highest entry of all of the classes. Something like 65 cars in the open class and 9-10 in Ladies. It was that popular because it was "perceived" to be affordable and the best place for a Fox body Mustang. Only the later was true.

 

[TeeLew]

I chose my car somewhat with that weight number in mind. Ultimately, I think I can get pretty close, but I'll be one of the rare few. Raising the minimum would be a good start to reducing the advantage of bespoke builds.

 

[Gearz]

i do think the PAX is too harsh, but then we do have that one alien in my local region (Otis) who keeps proving its not that far off, if you have the right combination of car and driver. 70+ mph in 2nd gear, 6 or 700 hp. Great rear diff, and proper suspension setup.

BTW the PAX calculation actually throws out the alien drivers results. Rick Ruth described his process quite a bit on an autox podcast (PAX Attack) and it was pretty interesting. So, if Otis is getting PAX times even with "normal" fast drivers then the PAX is soft. Alien drivers should be way above the normal or even fast normal drivers in the PAX.

 

[kz]

Went to look if car isn't coming apart again and found this.... Not a huge fan - feels like it is related to rear bar using relocation brackets (which otherwise are a great idea, move bar away, put links at much better angle and so on). Anyone saw this ? Solutions ? Ziptie line to the bar ?

 

[WItoTX]

Went to look if car isn't coming apart again and found this.... Not a huge fan - feels like it is related to rear bar using relocation brackets (which otherwise are a great idea, move bar away, put links at much better angle and so on). Anyone saw this ? Solutions ? Ziptie line to the bar ?

I have that on mine. Any chance those are J&M lines? I feel like they are slightly shorter than stock lines.

I zip tied them back to the brake line frame mount in your photo. No more issues.

 

[kz]

I have that on mine. Any chance those are J&M lines? I feel like they are slightly shorter than stock lines.

I zip tied them back to the brake line frame mount in your photo. No more issues.

That's exactly what they are. Which frame mount ? One in the upper right corner that holds the connection between hard and flexible brake line ?

(thanks a lot btw)

On the springs - ran this Sunday and it was hectic with me running between the timing trailer (I was the chief of timing this time, no back up, main person was at NJ Pro) and a car - but - it has potential to utilize. Front is so much quicker in transitions without I think a loss of grip (if any - minimal - and it might the massive front bar).
First reaction to the rear was that it has less grip on the exit than it had - but it wasn't entirely undrivable honestly, it was nowhere close to oversteer on the entry and may just need softened bar (which I just did).

I'll run T&T in Charlotte to do some back to back testing.

 

[mavisky]

Stiffened both of the Steeda Competition bars to full stiff and went out for our points 4 event this weekend. Our run heat was 2nd of the day and only got 2 clean runs in. Run 3 had a little mist, but timing errors for about 4 or 5 of us which lead to a re-run. By the time we did our re-run the back asphalt section had turned to ice and we were literally 10 seconds off the run from 10 minutes earlier. Wrapped it up and called it a day and it looks like people only got one more run before they called the event or everyone just gave up realizing how slick and slow it was.

In the end still came out with the class win with a clean 2nd run and put up the 8th fastest raw time of the day. Car still felt good but with only 2 runs and a tricky course it was hard to determine if I was trying to overdrive the car given the inclement weather or if the car had been unsettled slightly by the bar changes.

Car felt great, but it felt like it was understeering more than tending to oversteer. May need to talk to Steeda about other bar options and combinations.

 

[tosha]

Yeah, that doesn't look perfectly good to me

 

[WItoTX]

That's exactly what they are. Which frame mount ? One in the upper right corner that holds the connection between hard and flexible brake line ?

(thanks a lot btw)

On the springs - ran this Sunday and it was hectic with me running between the timing trailer (I was the chief of timing this time, no back up, main person was at NJ Pro) and a car - but - it has potential to utilize. Front is so much quicker in transitions without I think a loss of grip (if any - minimal - and it might the massive front bar).
First reaction to the rear was that it has less grip on the exit than it had - but it wasn't entirely undrivable honestly, it was nowhere close to oversteer on the entry and may just need softened bar (which I just did).

I'll run T&T in Charlotte to do some back to back testing.

Yes on the zip tie question.

I'm interested to hear how you like it after a few events.

I ran Chris Fletchers car this last event. It's significantly different than mine, that's for sure. I had him by 3/10s until our last run. So close, yet so far.

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