SCCA CAM-C Thread

[kz]

I keep an ongoing list of potential weight loss for all my project cars. Heres my list of things, my price (YMMV), and the cost/lb. I like to watch cost per pound because if something exceeds $150/lb, thats in the range of Ti hardware. So it better offer more than just weight reduction (billet uprights/knuckles for example).

I also roughly track front/mid/rear weight because my Evo being so front heavy and at min weight only needed to prioritize front weight loss. So something like battery relocation with heavy battery made sense on the Evo but 4lb lithium battery on the Mustang is more appropriate.

What are you replacing crash bars with ? I have been hesitant to do that given I do go on tracks (mid-O mainly and there's a lot of walls to hit) every once in a while and splitter is mounted to the front crash bar.

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[kz]

It didnt help that with it being my first I was a hair late to arrive as they started earlier than our regular events, then I one and did the novice meeting, and rhat meant i had only 1 walk per course before we got started compared to the usual 3 I would do on a normal Sunday.

For showing up Sat morning on your first Pro (which is overwhelming experience for the first time), I'd say you've done extremely good.

 

[LightningGT350R]

Nice list and I agree with prioritizing the lbs,/$, but what seats are you buying for $400? Between decent seats and mounts that's a $1000 to $2000 proposition for both of them. But at least you're gonna lose more than 50 lbs. as well!

From what I've read CF doors on a S550 are worth closer to 75 lbs. As steep as they are price wise once you get the low hanging fruit out of the way they are a nice chunk of weight for the money. There is the aluminum rear diff case - 20 lbs-ish I think. And hey if money becomes no object there are always carbon wheels from a GT350R.

 

[Dallas J]

What are you replacing crash bars with ? I have been hesitant to do that given I do go on tracks (mid-O mainly and there's a lot of walls to hit) every once in a while and splitter is mounted to the front crash bar.

Nothing special, just the BMR bars. In general, crash bars are rated basically for parking lot speeds, anything substantial and crumple zones started coming into play. So Ive long accepted the light weight replacement is such a little risk that I can tolerate.

Nice list and I agree with prioritizing the lbs,/$, but what seats are you buying for $400? Between decent seats and mounts that's a $1000 to $2000 proposition for both of them. But at least you're gonna lose more than 50 lbs. as well!

From what I've read CF doors on a S550 are worth closer to 75 lbs. As steep as they are price wise once you get the low hanging fruit out of the way they are a nice chunk of weight for the money. There is the aluminum rear diff case - 20 lbs-ish I think. And hey if money becomes no object there are always carbon wheels from a GT350R.

My list is definitely based on what I have. And I have Sparco EvoII seats sitting around. I also have some steel bases, but need to work on fitting them and see if I can minimize the weights without any sacrifices there.

The CF door thing, alibaba is getting real good for finding where aftermarket companies are actually getting their parts they claim to make in-house. The price per lb of weight loss is looking real tempting. But that will probably be a project for next winter.

But it just goes to show, even my portly supercharged 10speed Premium car has lots of room to get to sub 3500lbs before major surgery takes place.

 

[WItoTX]

Nice list and I agree with prioritizing the lbs,/$, but what seats are you buying for $400? Between decent seats and mounts that's a $1000 to $2000 proposition for both of them. But at least you're gonna lose more than 50 lbs. as well!

From what I've read CF doors on a S550 are worth closer to 75 lbs. As steep as they are price wise once you get the low hanging fruit out of the way they are a nice chunk of weight for the money. There is the aluminum rear diff case - 20 lbs-ish I think. And hey if money becomes no object there are always carbon wheels from a GT350R.

Honestly I wouldn't mess with CF doors if I'm not doing a full cage. Now if only trailering a car to an autox event, that's a different story. But I don't trust other drivers on the road to risk losing the steel protection of the factory door.

 

[Dallas J]

It would be cool to make some quick change hinges you could swap doors quickly for race weekend. If you could make it a 10-15min job, it would be worth the amount of weight before loading in the trailer (assuming you have that perk)

 

[LightningGT350R]

Honestly I wouldn't mess with CF doors if I'm not doing a full cage. Now if only trailering a car to an autox event, that's a different story. But I don't trust other drivers on the road to risk losing the steel protection of the factory door.

I don't drive me car more than 300 miles a year on the street so the CF doors with no cage doesn't bother me, and since the cage offsets the doors, I wouldn't do both. Its still a risk, but one I'm willing to chance. I mean, if and when I can afford the doors.

Someone (Watson Racing) used to make a CF dash that was other big saver. Like 50 lbs. But that seems like a whole lotta work as well.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Work aside, 50 lbs of dash would be tempting if it retained the creature comforts.

I’ve thought about doors too, but without a cage with door bars, it would mean the car should only be used trailered to autox events, and I’m not quite there yet.

 

[Dallas J]

Weight reduction definitely becomes a slippery slope and expensive endeavor.

My Evo started out in around 3250lbs, without aero we got down to 2800 with all Street Mod legal mods which are a bit more restrictive than CAM/XA. Thats almost 15% reduction.

Things we did definitely made it a not friendly street car. Things like,

• Ditch AC and all AC components (but keep heat)
• Zero sound deadening
• Cut misc brackets all over the car that no longer served a purpose
• All stereo equipment gone
• All the light weight version of heavy things
• Pull apart literally the entire car, put only back in what is required (like no airbags)
• Billet or tubular replacements for steel things.

Once we moved to XA, we had to bump the weight up to 3100. With aero and 315s, we did that by adding big battery to the rear, running rear seats, and adding back in a few nice to have things. Aero is kinda heavy...

If we followed that same approach on the mustang, 3300lbs would absolutely be possible. I bet min weight wouldnt be a problem. The car would suck on the street so you'd need to be really dedicated to the class or only tracking the car. 3300lbs with ~650hp on 335/345 tire and mild aero would make a helluva mustang but outside of classing, that begs the question of why not just get a C5z or C6z.

 

[LightningGT350R]

Weight reduction definitely becomes a slippery slope and expensive endeavor.

My Evo started out in around 3250lbs, without aero we got down to 2800 with all Street Mod legal mods which are a bit more restrictive than CAM/XA. Thats almost 15% reduction.

Things we did definitely made it a not friendly street car. Things like,

• Ditch AC and all AC components (but keep heat)
• Zero sound deadening
• Cut misc brackets all over the car that no longer served a purpose
• All stereo equipment gone
• All the light weight version of heavy things
• Pull apart literally the entire car, put only back in what is required (like no airbags)
• Billet or tubular replacements for steel things.

Once we moved to XA, we had to bump the weight up to 3100. With aero and 315s, we did that by adding big battery to the rear, running rear seats, and adding back in a few nice to have things. Aero is kinda heavy...

If we followed that same approach on the mustang, 3300lbs would absolutely be possible. I bet min weight wouldnt be a problem. The car would suck on the street so you'd need to be really dedicated to the class or only tracking the car. 3300lbs with ~650hp on 335/345 tire and mild aero would make a helluva mustang but outside of classing, that begs the question of why not just get a C5z or C6z.

I'm thinking it would be harder than you think on an s550. It's a very heavy platform. An S197 can get to minimum for sure. I haven't pulled out all of the sound deadening but I'm told is around 10 lbs total. Probably less. My buddy with an SN95 found 5 lbs in his interior. I can't imagine the s550 being more than double that. I'm at 3520 car alone. I still have the EVAP and stereo (rear speakers removed) to remove (and sound deadening) to pull from the interior - everything else is gone. Sparco Evo's, no airbags, gutted behind the B-pillar. The T56 might have added a bit of weight but with all of that interior removal and lighter wheels and brakes I'm at 3520. To get to 3300 it will definitely take carbon doors, dash, hood (which is pretty light now - maybe 10 lbs max savings) and I'm still at just under 3400. If you can get a s550 to 3300 you're using a sawzall to do it. I'm not saying it's impossible, just not easy. Unless you're running an ecoboost! The thought has crossed my mind. And then I realize why I wanted a Mustang in the first place. I had a Focus RS and loved it, but it sounds like a tractor.

I'll add that just swapping from 315 Yokes to 335 RZ added about 20 lbs.

I'll get off the rails for a bit and talk about the SCCA rules. I like the open rules for CAM. It is a builders class that allows some creativity and of course money spending. There are some things that I do wish that would would change - windows for one. We're supposed to have lights, turn signals, horns... But working door glass isn't a requirement. If you want to get to the min weight? Pull the door glass and drop some plastic in there and it's legal. It doesn't even have to move.

 

[Dallas J]

I'm thinking it would be harder than you think on an s550. It's a very heavy platform. An S197 can get to minimum for sure. I haven't pulled out all of the sound deadening but I'm told is around 10 lbs total. Probably less. My buddy with an SN95 found 5 lbs in his interior. I can't imagine the s550 being more than double that. I'm at 3520 car alone. I still have the EVAP and stereo (rear speakers removed) to remove (and sound deadening) to pull from the interior - everything else is gone. Sparco Evo's, no airbags, gutted behind the B-pillar. The T56 might have added a bit of weight but with all of that interior removal and lighter wheels and brakes I'm at 3520. To get to 3300 it will definitely take carbon doors, dash, hood (which is pretty light now - maybe 10 lbs max savings) and I'm still at just under 3400. If you can get a s550 to 3300 you're using a sawzall to do it. I'm not saying it's impossible, just not easy. Unless you're running an ecoboost! The thought has crossed my mind. And then I realize why I wanted a Mustang in the first place. I had a Focus RS and loved it, but it sounds like a tractor.

I'll add that just swapping from 315 Yokes to 335 RZ added about 20 lbs.

I'll get off the rails for a bit and talk about the SCCA rules. I like the open rules for CAM. It is a builders class that allows some creativity and of course money spending. There are some things that I do wish that would would change - windows for one. We're supposed to have lights, turn signals, horns... But working door glass isn't a requirement. If you want to get to the min weight? Pull the door glass and drop some plastic in there and it's legal. It doesn't even have to move.

I think you're missing a lot of the "replace heavy steel with lighter things" part. These cars are full of heavy stamped steel from its rental car roots. Some things are easily available like the bumper bars, other things may take a bit more work like the heavy oem strut bar. But when you get in there and rip everything out, you find a lot of things that can stay out.

The Evo starts life as a pretty bare bones car. Thin plastic interior panels, almost no creature comforts, little extra safety things. But still, theres a lot to be found when you get deep. I made a set of custom ultra light uprights (-6.5lbs/corner) with wilwood sl6r calipers (minus a few lbs, forget how much) and custom ultralite rotors (-11 lbs/corner). Those ended up being a bit too light and I had to beef up the braking later. But, it was all part of the big loss.

Im in the same boat though, I dont want my Mustang to end up like my Evo was. I want it competitive but also fun and usable on the street. Hence the boost.

Back to the door thing, if we could do a quick change door, a lexan side window with a mechanical up/down setting (or get fancy with a mid point!) would be even more weight loss. I dont recall what the rule says about windows, but I dont think it says it has to fit "well" right? ;)

 

[LightningGT350R]

I think you're missing a lot of the "replace heavy steel with lighter things" part. These cars are full of heavy stamped steel from its rental car roots. Some things are easily available like the bumper bars, other things may take a bit more work like the heavy oem strut bar. But when you get in there and rip everything out, you find a lot of things that can stay out.

The Evo starts life as a pretty bare bones car. Thin plastic interior panels, almost no creature comforts, little extra safety things. But still, theres a lot to be found when you get deep. I made a set of custom ultra light uprights (-6.5lbs/corner) with wilwood sl6r calipers (minus a few lbs, forget how much) and custom ultralite rotors (-11 lbs/corner). Those ended up being a bit too light and I had to beef up the braking later. But, it was all part of the big loss.

Im in the same boat though, I dont want my Mustang to end up like my Evo was. I want it competitive but also fun and usable on the street. Hence the boost.

Back to the door thing, if we could do a quick change door, a lexan side window with a mechanical up/down setting (or get fancy with a mid point!) would be even more weight loss. I dont recall what the rule says about windows, but I dont think it says it has to fit "well" right? ;)

I've done bumper bars and strut bar (lighter version) and removed the washer bottle while I was in there. I can do 2 piece rotors in the rear, the aluminum center section, the rest of the A/C system, stereo and the previous listed carbon parts and the math doesn't add up to 3300 to me. Maybe if I do the window thing. And of course we can go to plastic to replace the front and rear but then the min increases by 150 lbs.. That might make the most sense. Again, not saying 3300 can't be done, but it's not gonna be cheap.

There was a very public build that started from a completely stripped car with an LS that was suggested that it would be min weight as well. Didn't get there. If someone wants a CAMC car at min weight, get a 6th gen Camaro. They are about 150 lbs. lighter to start.

Regarding the window rule - there isn't one other than I think the common thought is you can't remove the glass. So certainly "good fit" isn't required. But that seems like crossing a line into non-street car territory. But that's just my 2 cents. I mean if basic things like lights and horn are required, it seems like working windows should be as well. I think these should be street cars in the sense that they are at least water tight. I know of no one that has done this other than the aforementioned LS swapped build.

 

[mavisky]

If we followed that same approach on the mustang, 3300lbs would absolutely be possible. I bet min weight wouldnt be a problem. The car would suck on the street so you'd need to be really dedicated to the class or only tracking the car. 3300lbs with ~650hp on 335/345 tire and mild aero would make a helluva mustang but outside of classing, that begs the question of why not just get a C5z or C6z.

That's the exact research I've been doing. Especially given that there are C6 Z06's going for around 40K now. If I could get 50+ out of my car (hard with mods and approaching 28,000 miles) I would have a 10-15K of initial mod money to start with on the new platform. Literally planning on co-driving my buddy's C6 Z06 CAMS car before I go any further with the Shelby.

 

[Dallas J]

That's the exact research I've been doing. Especially given that there are C6 Z06's going for around 40K now. If I could get 50+ out of my car (hard with mods and approaching 28,000 miles) I would have a 10-15K of initial mod money to start with on the new platform. Literally planning on co-driving my buddy's C6 Z06 CAMS car before I go any further with the Shelby.

I drove my buddies moderately prepped C6z (Dan Bullis) last year. He was running RT660s which are good but not quite A052 (pre-RE71rz of course) and his clutch was awful. The visibility outward also seemed very Chevy-terrible. Sitting at the line I was like I have no clue what the hell is gonna happen here cause this feels awkwardAF.

Took about 3 seconds into my run to forget about all of that and just drive. Damn, that car put down all the power, was so easy to modulate, and corner entry to mid corner just had all the feel. Even though I didnt really know where the limit was, it was so easy to bounce around over and under driving.

Ive been trying to drive more RWD cars to get a feel for what I want in handling since Ive been racing exclusively AWD for 20+ years. That run was it. Confident entries but still able to adjust line mid corner, ability to put significant power down starting at apex, and stability through offsets.

 

[mavisky]

I drove my buddies moderately prepped C6z (Dan Bullis) last year. He was running RT660s which are good but not quite A052 (pre-RE71rz of course) and his clutch was awful. The visibility outward also seemed very Chevy-terrible. Sitting at the line I was like I have no clue what the hell is gonna happen here cause this feels awkwardAF.

Took about 3 seconds into my run to forget about all of that and just drive. Damn, that car put down all the power, was so easy to modulate, and corner entry to mid corner just had all the feel. Even though I didnt really know where the limit was, it was so easy to bounce around over and under driving.

Ive been trying to drive more RWD cars to get a feel for what I want in handling since Ive been racing exclusively AWD for 20+ years. That run was it. Confident entries but still able to adjust line mid corner, ability to put significant power down starting at apex, and stability through offsets.

I did a ride along in my buddy's car who was on A052's at the time and a set of coilovers. That was about it. I was absolutely floored at how much throttle he could apply and how early he could apply it in some corners compared to my car. That whole transaxle thing putting more weight out back seems to be so much help and helped me understand how much of an advantage it was going to be on the GTD.

The only thing I hated was the Chevy Cobalt feeling ass interior, but that's why the only reason I'm considering buying one is to go full race car with it so that I'm not so bothered by that portion.

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