Aluminator Failure

[vtknight]

So you are asking the Tuner to play dad so the OP has zero responsibility?

Got it.

As the saying goes "Nothings idiot proof, just a better idiot will come along"

LOL you dont seem to have the capacity for some critical thinking and take the 2 seconds to come to the conclusion 800+ on pump gas isnt very bright.

I hope you never have a car out of warranty since you cant seem to understand the responsibility is on the end user.

LOL.

I see the two of you going back and forth - and as always - the truth is usually somewhere in between.

I agree with you that an owner has the (final) responsibility for their own car, what they decide to do to the car and what Shop/Tuner they use. OP stated that he wanted that 9. I also agree that the decision to go 800+ on pump+ is pretty crazy, Aluminator or not. Detonation is detonation. I also agree that a Tuner is not responsible for mechanical issues. I would expect a Tuner to have a great deal of feedback about the fuel I am running however. The tune is the Tuner - and if it is true - that PBD was cool with running 21.5 psi on pump gas plus a shot of booster - that is questionable decision making. Especially if they muted knock alerts. My Tuner would not even allow that fuel decision lol. He would correctly tell me I will blow up the motor because there is too much room for error with pump plus boostane. And if I "demanded it" - he would make me sign something - that I had been warned. I don't know if it was a lack of fuel system that stopped OP from using E85. That said - buying 110+ octane race fuel would likely have been a solution versus pump+.

IMHO - There is blame on both sides on this one being fair. Owner is always ultimately responsible if they made a decision to try for that ET knowing there was a risk - but it isn't so clear cut. A Tuner is free to give their feedback and even say no. PBD won't be starving from a lack of money if they refused a tuning decision.

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[NotagainV2]

Heres another part that is incredibly important but no ones mentioned yet. (maybe I missed it)

The OP should have been logging the car ALL the time! Especially when swinging for the fences on pump gas.

This isnt my 1st rodeo and in the past Ive always used a handheld or scangauge to view knock and timing real time while driving.

Thats so when the knock goes bonkers you should be able to get your damn foot out of the boost!

 

[stang17]

Heres another part that is incredibly important but no ones mentioned yet. (maybe I missed it)

The OP should have been logging the car ALL the time! Especially when swinging for the fences on pump gas.

This isnt my 1st rodeo and in the past Ive always used a handheld or scangauge to view knock and timing real time while driving.

Thats so when the knock goes bonkers you should be able to get your damn foot out of the boost!

Every single dyno run and 1/4 mile pass has been data logged. I also have the nguage set up where the knock PID is displayed all the time and use the LED indicator light to light up if any + knock is indicated. If you pm your email address I'd be more than happy to send you dozens of data log files where you can see for yourself what I had been seeing the entire time.

If I didn't redyno the car at the car show this past April I would have never knew anything was wrong. The tune cold started perfect, idled great, gas MPG was improved over my whipple tune, no smoke, catch can never had anything questionable in it, no hesitation, liner partial throttle, fuel trims were usually ranging from-2 to 2, often at 0 or +/- 1, and pulled like a freight train at WOT. These were how the spark plugs looked when we pulled them at 6,200 miles.

 

[olaosunt]

Every single dyno run and 1/4 mile pass has been data logged. I also have the nguage set up where the knock PID is displayed all the time and use the LED indicator light to light up if any + knock is indicated. If you pm your email address I'd be more than happy to send you dozens of data log files where you can see for yourself what I had been seeing the entire time.

If I didn't redyno the car at the car show this past April I would have never knew anything was wrong. The tune cold started perfect, idled great, gas MPG was improved over my whipple tune, no smoke, catch can never had anything questionable in it, no hesitation, liner partial throttle, fuel trims were usually ranging from-2 to 2, often at 0 or +/- 1, and pulled like a freight train at WOT. These were how the spark plugs looked when we pulled them at 6,200 miles.

Hi , noob here and also “fellow blower up “ but of many motors . LOl
I had a hard time understanding the compression /leak down test results .

Which cylinders were down on compression ?

Does head gasket failure always equal detonation ?

May be they just failed or heads lifted due to too much boost or not enough clamping from head bolts .?

 

[SolarFlare]

Heres another part that is incredibly important but no ones mentioned yet. (maybe I missed it)

The OP should have been logging the car ALL the time! Especially when swinging for the fences on pump gas.

This isnt my 1st rodeo and in the past Ive always used a handheld or scangauge to view knock and timing real time while driving.

Thats so when the knock goes bonkers you should be able to get your damn foot out of the boost!

Im with you here. I quickly realized the importance of me being able to pull up a log on my computer and look at the basic stuff on my end. And when sending logs to Jon I make sure to mention any areas of concern and let him give me his input. Because I understand tuners are humans and after looking at hundreds of logs during a week there’s always the opportunity to miss something. Same way I’ve made mistakes in my job.
I will say that I’ve seen PBD logs and it makes me incredibly uneasy when I see flat knock retard activity. They don’t use the sensors in both directions like Lund does, but you’ll randomly see a blip in the positive direction which quickly returns to zero. Idk if they are desensitized at all but the cars have been running great for a couple years. I like to think I’ve saved 1-2 motors from buddies by just reviewing their logs. I trust my tuner, I just don’t blindly follow him like a messiah.

 

[stang17]

Hi , noob here and also “fellow blower up “ but of many motors . LOl
I had a hard time understanding the compression /leak down test results .

Which cylinders were down on compression ?

Does head gasket failure always equal detonation ?

May be they just failed or heads lifted due to too much boost or not enough clamping from head bolts .?

Hey buddy, I've felt your pain over the years with seeing what you have been through.

Cylinders 4 and 8 had the worst blow by from the leakdown test as they only held 70 and 72 psi out of 100 psi.

I don't have the motor in my possession and only have the pictures from Ford/Holbrook inspection report.

When I was doing the leakdown test, we did take a boroscope to look down the cylinders and didn't see anything blatantly out of the ordinary.

Certainly possible it was a head gasket failure.

 

[olaosunt]

Hey guys, been awhile since I posted anything. Just wanted to let you know that I found the limits of an 11:1 aluminator.

My stock motor failed at 12,800 miles from a snapped crankshaft snout. It was supercharged from day 1 with a whipple gen 2 stage 2.

I ended up going with an 11:1 aluminator and adding a MFP crank support. I decided to go "all in" for a max effort pump gas build and purchased DW 95 lb injectors, BAP, calimer stage 3 MT-82, RXT 1200 HD clutch, and PBD tune while the new motor was getting installed.

Everything was put together August 2019 and proceeded to put a few hundred miles on the car before making the power pulls and remote dyno tuning.

With a 3.5 pulley and 96 octane ( 93 plus a bottle of boostane shot) PBD was able to tune me to the likes of 819 whp and 608 ft lbs.

Car drove great and was able to get me into the 9s and 138 mph at 4120 lb race weight.

6,000 miles later I put the car back on the same dyno and only make 764 whp and 556 ft lbs.


I proceeded to pull the plugs and do a compression and leak down test.

Compression / leak down was as follows

Cylinder 5 - 200 leak down test 82/100 psi
Cylinder 6 - 230 leak down test 88/100 psi
Cylinder 7 - 195 leak down test 80/100 psi
Cylinder 8 - 205 leak down test 70/100 psi
Cylinder 1 - 227 leak down test 99/100 psi
Cylinder 2 - 225 leak down test 92/100 psi
Cylinder 3 - 200 leak down test 86/100 psi
Cylinder 4 - 200 leak down test 72/100 psi

I proceed to pull the motor and have it shipped to Ford Performance in hopes of being covered under the 24 month, 24,000 mile warranty.

Attached is the copy of the inspection report.

I was told by PBD that I would be able to run as low as a 3.325 pulley with my 21.5 timing tune on 96 octane fuel.

I never went smaller than the 3.5 pulley because I didn't want the hassle of having to change to a different size belt.

Every dyno pull and 1/4 mile pass over the past year has been data logged and all logs consistently show 0 knock. No -/+ , just 0.

My original PBD tunes were showing knock even at 16 degrees and partial throttle. PBD was convinced the knock was false, made some type of revision (don't know what because tune is locked) and all knock went away.

I trust PBD and them giving me 21+ timing for use with 96 octane as I don't believe they would give me anything they didn't consider safe.

My question is why wouldn't any of my logs show knock when apparently there was a considerable amount of detonation going on ( see attached picture)?

Also, has anyone else had head gasket failures at 800 + hp?

I'm not throwing any shade at PBD, but just wanted to share my experience. PBD has been great to me over the past 2 years and I have no complaints with their customer service or response times.

Currently, the motor is at Holbrook Racing Engines who is working on getting me a quote for repair.

Compression looks within 5% in all 8
Does the leak down show problems with cylinder # 4 and # 8 ?

why worry so much about slightly down dyno numbers on a different day ?

Why pull a motor thats runs great ... especially since it seems you were may be not quite in a financial position to rebuild it .

I assume you can turn wrench’s otherwise thats $2500 R&R right there ... plus shipping a long block which can be $$

 

[olaosunt]

Hey buddy, I've felt your pain over the years with seeing what you have been through.

Cylinders 4 and 8 had the worst blow by from the leakdown test as they only held 70 and 72 psi out of 100 psi.

I don't have the motor in my possession and only have the pictures from Ford/Holbrook inspection report.

When I was doing the leakdown test, we did take a boroscope to look down the cylinders and didn't see anything blatantly out of the ordinary.

Certainly possible it was a head gasket failure.

That’s why I keep “spare “ motors now .... i may let you join my club “coyote killers “ .
Thanks for the explanation of the leak down test .
I went back and guessed right what the issue is .
I usually stop at the compression test (I know it’s inadequate alone ) .
Most times it tells me “time for that spare “ LOL
... like my 18 OEM motor ... finally gave out at almost 30,000 miles (longest serving motor I have had ) most boosted, over a 100 passes and over 900 whp. I knew it was on borrowed time , had the spare already but debated whether to take it out while it was still alive .
I rolled the dice and lost .... but still she had a good run .
PBD tuned also by the way and have no complaints . Running E85 with 21.5 * timing and 2.75 6 rib pulley .
I suspect it has been down on power for a while (running same ET as others with bigger pulleys )
# 7 was slightly down last year ... guess it finally gave out .
Moral of my thread jack .... Build a spare at your own pace while your motor is alive if you want to avoid prolonged down time /paying for it all at once .
Good luck man .

 

[stang17]

The only reason I pulled it was because I had contacted Ford Performance after doing the leak down and compression and was told I could send it to them to see if it could be covered under the 2 yr 24,000 mile warranty.

Ford sent me an engine cradle, paid for shipping, and paid for the engine teardown and inspection. They even offered to cover the shipping if I wanted it sent to an alternate engine builder.

The shop who pulled the motor and will be putting everything back together is charging me $1,400 total which I think is very reasonable for pulling the motor, taking the whipple stuff off, putting the whipple back on, and reinstalling the motor.

I'm still waiting on my quote from Holbrook racing engines, but hope all I need is a hone job, new rings, cometic gaskets, and ARP head studs to get it back together and stronger than before.

I thought if the Aluminator could handle the abuse shown in this video, my measly dyno pulls and 1/4 passes would be nothing.

 

[SolarFlare]

Yep, any tuner I would go to would have the capability to find and correct mechanical problems.


Well the "refined" files I have ridden in from the tuners mentioned have sucked as far as trans tuning.

We all like what we like.

IMO Lund went to hell after they got big enough the old man had to hire help.

How many threads have been started about some trouble with a lund tune and his answer is "TS we don't trouble shoot problems"

Id like to know what was the issue with the trans tune, i mean what is the guy you like doing that 10 years of R&D hasnt figured out yet? Or is your guy leaving the trans tuning stock so it feels nice and soft. IDK who tunes you but I have ridden in and driven PBD cars and they shift well no complaints, like mine does. Maybe one day one of these local tunes will make it to my neck of the woods so I can ride in it. But so far I havent seen any actual/factual results from it, just potentially bad mechanic work that got fixed and then tuned by this guy.

Lund doesnt have any means of charging you for mechanic/troubleshooting hours. So why should they be email mechanics?? They do make recommendations based on what they see on logs, but do you want them to fly to you to fix your car or get on a zoom call with you? Every successful tuner will at some point need help, one guy cant handle it all, if he does then he just aint that good.

I think tuners and customers alike need to elevate themselves based on their own personal achievements instead of just throwing shade at the proven guys in hope some people will believe them and switch sides.

 

[olaosunt]

The only reason I pulled it was because I had contacted Ford Performance after doing the leak down and compression and was told I could send it to them to see if it could be covered under the 2 yr 24,000 mile warranty.

Ford sent me an engine cradle, paid for shipping, and paid for the engine teardown and inspection. They even offered to cover the shipping if I wanted it sent to an alternate engine builder.

The shop who pulled the motor and will be putting everything back together is charging me $1,400 total which I think is very reasonable for pulling the motor, taking the whipple stuff off, putting the whipple back on, and reinstalling the motor.

I'm still waiting on my quote from Holbrook racing engines, but hope all I need is a hone job, new rings, cometic gaskets, and ARP head studs to get it back together and stronger than before.

I thought if the Aluminator could handle the abuse shown in this video, my measly dyno pulls and 1/4 passes would be nothing.

Ah, that makes sense especially since there was the prospect of warranty..
Thats also a great price on the engine R&R .

I also wonder about potential conflict of interest with the shop doing the teardown for warranty ... getting to rebuild it on your own dime .
since Ford performance is offering to pay for shipping , I would use another builder. At least you get a second opinion .

if you need them I have 7 pistons out of an old alluminator.
I actually have 8 , after Mahle had shipped me a replacement for the one that had a hole .

Even though they say it’s the same spec it looks slightly different

 

[jweggy]

Ah, that makes sense especially since there was the prospect of warranty..
Thats also a great price on the engine R&R .

I also wonder about potential conflict of interest with the shop doing the teardown for warranty ... getting to rebuild it on your own dime .
since Ford performance is offering to pay for shipping , I would use another builder. At least you get a second opinion .

if you need them I have 7 pistons out of an old alluminator.
I actually have 8 , after Mahle had shipped me a replacement for the one that had a hole .

Even though they say it’s the same spec it looks slightly different

I’m curious. What are the pros and cons of remote versus local tuners?

 

[Black Dog]

I tend to agree but Rob did state he was convinced it was false knock then a tune revision gets rid of it.

Makes me scratch my head.

Yea I have heard that before.

 

[Mghoward74]

False knock could be from a catch can/oil separator rattling around or better yet, a longtube header vibrating up against something.. just saying.

By looking at the pics of your spark plugs, is that anti seize on them?

 

[stang17]

False knock could be from a catch can/oil separator rattling around or better yet, a longtube header vibrating up against something.. just saying.

By looking at the pics of your spark plugs, is that anti seize on them?

Yeah antiseize. The plugs came with the crate engine and instructed the shop that was doing install to gap them to .028. Ford motorcraft 1 range colder.

I've heard of not using anti seize on NGK plugs as it can potentially cause conductive issues and changing the heat range of the plug.

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