2017 gt350 engine failure

[machsmith]

It would be nice if they would share info. Especially since a certain percentage of GT350'schedule are turned into full on race cars and have no warranty. It would be like them not sharing probable fail points with their own race teams.

I bet the GT4 has billet gears.. hell wouldn't even doubt that the GT350RC engine had billet gears haha.

We'll not hear a damn thing about it, even if it turns out to be a 100 engine failures on this site alone, they still won't admit it...they'll just keep building the 18 without change.

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[Voodooo]

I bet the GT4 has billet gears.. hell wouldn't even doubt that the GT350RC engine had billet gears haha.

We'll not hear a damn thing about it, even if it turns out to be a 100 engine failures on this site alone, they still won't admit it...they'll just keep building the 18 without change.

The GT4 and FR350S has a dry sump oil system.

 

[Varekai]

I have reason to believe my oil pump is going. I have posted about ticking and the loud valve train noises, today I noticed my oil pressure was lower than normal at idle, usually it's around 50, today it was closer to 25. Also heard some whirring noises today crusing around. Oil level is to the top dot, so I don't have low oil. Looked up signs of a failing oil pump, and every one of these symptoms were signs. Now my dillemna, do I just wait for the engine to go and get a new one, or do I bring it in and have the pump looked at after there could have already been damage from excessive wear to my engine?

 

[Hack]

I have reason to believe my oil pump is going. I have posted about ticking and the loud valve train noises, today I noticed my oil pressure was lower than normal at idle, usually it's around 50, today it was closer to 25. Also heard some whirring noises today crusing around. Oil level is to the top dot, so I don't have low oil. Looked up signs of a failing oil pump, and every one of these symptoms were signs. Now my dillemna, do I just wait for the engine to go and get a new one, or do I bring it in and have the pump looked at after there could have already been damage from excessive wear to my engine?

Take it in.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

The GT4 and FR350S has a dry sump oil system.

But there still has to be an oil pump even if not engine driven. Are you meaning to say those don't have a gear type oil pump? If not, I don't understand the point of your post.

 

[Voodooo]

A dry sump oil system has an external oil pump that's belt driven off the front of the crank balancer. The oil pan is shallow and has hoses coming out from the sides. Oil is not stored inside the oil pan, its stored inside a tank usually mounted inside the car. The pump itself is made into stages depending on the engines needs and type of uses the cars being used for. You can also have a external wet sump oil system. Where the oil pan still stores oil but the pump is still external and belt driven.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I have reason to believe my oil pump is going. I have posted about ticking and the loud valve train noises, today I noticed my oil pressure was lower than normal at idle, usually it's around 50, today it was closer to 25. Also heard some whirring noises today crusing around. Oil level is to the top dot, so I don't have low oil. Looked up signs of a failing oil pump, and every one of these symptoms were signs. Now my dillemna, do I just wait for the engine to go and get a new one, or do I bring it in and have the pump looked at after there could have already been damage from excessive wear to my engine?

It is possible that your oil pump is failing. But if the pump can achieve the normal 75-100 psi when you rev the engine, its probably not the pump.
Low oil pressure at idle is usually caused by excessive clearance somewhere in the system, like a loose or worn cam bearing, failing rod or main bearing, etc.
I would get this checked ASAP at your local Ford dealer.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Listen. I agree with 95% of what you say and I'm not disputing it. But here is what you fail to realize. Just as you said, fords in business to make money and profit. They are also a business that offers a product that consumers want not need. And when you offer a product the consumer demands a warranty. Which the company provides. When anything is made it of course has a rate of failure. Doesn't matter if it's a house, car, a swimming pool, baseball bat etc. The 5.2 fpc voodoo has been proven to have vibrations. We all know it.
I'll give you one guess as to why 99% of the Motorsport world "DOES NOT USE" FPC.
Fords very own FR350S and GT4 does not use the fpc. All because of vibrations and other related issues. It's simple!
Smokey Yunick tried them in the 60s and proven they were self destructive.
Ford knows this, it's the very reason why they didn't use the fpc years and years ago in V8s. Why do you think ford didn't use the FPC in the original GT40's? Why do you think they went with the "bundle of snakes" exhaust? To get the same effect of exhaust scavenging without the vibrations from the fpc. The 5.0 is smooth, the 5.2 is not. The 5.0 doesn't vibrate, the 5.2 does. The 5.0 can survive on a powdered metal OPG without a blower the 5.2 can't survive NA because of its own vibrations will crack the OPG. I will guarantee you with the RPM and VIBRATIONS, that with less than 25,000 miles the bearings will show noticeably more wear on the 5.2 bearings over 5.0 bearings. If you honestly believe that the harmonics and vibrations do not cause failed engine parts that make metal on metal contact you are mistaken. Why do you think the 5.0 opg's fail on a supercharged engine? Because of the supercharger! The vibrations, harmonics, crank flex all put stress on the weakest link. The OPG! You do realize the job of the crank balancer correct? To control vibrations and harmonics. Imagine a tuning fork that's been struck, it rings a note. Dampen that tuning fork with a rubber band and strik the tuning fork and the ring becomes a thud. I believe that stock balancer and opg's are of a poor design and the vibrations and harmonics are the main cause of failure. You never hardly hear of a 5.0 having a failed engine due to a broken valve spring, keeper, retainer, piston, bearing, cam, chain etc. working it's way into the oil pump and jamming up the opg's and breaking them. By the time a engine component breaks, falls down to the oil pan and get sucked into the pick up tube and jammed into the OPG the engine would of already yelled help and made it noticeable to the driver. All before the low oil psi warning display. If a cam phaser let loose, if a valve spring or valve broke etc, you'd know it before the low oil psi light.
If a piston ring or bearing were to fail, and make its way into the OPG, (which is possible) but I still think would be rare. It wouldn't take a piece much larger than a few microns to destroy the OPG. But cut open you oil filter once and pour the filtered oil into a high thread count white piece of fabric and rinse away the oil and see what you find! I changed my oil at 200 miles and you'd be amazed what I found. Yet all that shit I sifted didn't destroy my opg's. "Yet".

I agree with your assessment of the high NVH associated with FPC engines.
I think Ford wanted to clearly differentiate the Voodoo engine for marketing reasons, adding uniqueness and perceived value to the GT350. They succeeded, big time.
However, these OEMs due brutal durability testing on new engine designs. Things like full throttle and maximum load for 100s of hours at a time. I think it unlikely that they would miss something like an inferior oil pump gear that was prone to fail. Possible? Yes. Likely?, no.
Ferrari persists in using the FPC design for a variety of reasons, even on the turbocharged 488 GTB. I don't hear much about NVH complaints from those guys, but then the average 488 sees about 2000 miles per year.
There was much hoopla about the Voodoo engine being "hand assembled", blah, blah, blah. Signed by the assembler. My opinion, with no data to back it up, is that the root cause of the handful of engine failures that I have read about stem from one source: human error. Just my opinion, and I confess I could be wrong.

 

[Voodooo]

I agree with your assessment of the high NVH associated with FPC engines.
I think Ford wanted to clearly differentiate the Voodoo engine for marketing reasons, adding uniqueness and perceived value to the GT350. They succeeded, big time.
However, these OEMs due brutal durability testing on new engine designs. Things like full throttle and maximum load for 100s of hours at a time. I think it unlikely that they would miss something like an inferior oil pump gear that was prone to fail. Possible? Yes. Likely?, no.
Ferrari persists in using the FPC design for a variety of reasons, even on the turbocharged 488 GTB. I don't hear much about NVH complaints from those guys, but then the average 488 sees about 2000 miles per year.
There was much hoopla about the Voodoo engine being "hand assembled", blah, blah, blah. Signed by the assembler. My opinion, with no data to back it up, is that the root cause of the handful of engine failures that I have read about stem from one source: human error. Just my opinion, and I confess I could be wrong.

If I'm not mistaken the Ferrari uses balance shafts. The 5.2 does not. The 5.2 voodoo is a big block compared to a Ferrari. I have no idea why you keep comparing the two engines. They have nothing in common at all.
Have you never heard of a engineer disaster? Engineers are not God, they often make many design flaws! The OPG is one of them.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

If I'm not mistaken the Ferrari uses balance shafts. The 5.2 does not. The 5.2 voodoo is a big block compared to a Ferrari. I have no idea why you keep comparing the two engines. They have nothing in common at all.
Have you never heard of a engineer disaster? Engineers are not God, they often make many design flaws! The OPG is one of them.

Engineering disaster? OK, as you wish.
Forums are wonderful things. Everyone gets to voice an opinion.
But one day in the not-too-distant future, we will know. If the oil pump is defective, Ford will quietly supercede it. Every Ford parts guy and all of us will know the truth.
And I will get to say the words that everyone loves to hear, "you were right and I was wrong".
I hope you will show me that same courtesy.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

If I'm not mistaken the Ferrari uses balance shafts. The 5.2 does not. The 5.2 voodoo is a big block compared to a Ferrari. I have no idea why you keep comparing the two engines. They have nothing in common at all.
Have you never heard of a engineer disaster? Engineers are not God, they often make many design flaws! The OPG is one of them.

Scott, your opinions and knowledge in these subject areas are no doubt extensive and greatly appreciated by those of us reading, but I feel as though you are labeling "bad design" without full background knowledge of the subject matter.

If this were the case, then in reality as ForgedWheeler has stated, every engine produced by every manufacturer would be a "bad design" because they never are built with the absolute best parts possible. Engineers are absolutely not gods by no means, but when you consider an engine that begins in concept typically 3-4 years before production, design flaws are very, very unlikely. Engineers can't control the assembly process, nor can they control defects in sourced materials from outside vendors. All design is based off of the parts being made in near perfect condition, with no errors in the assembly, taking into account the individual failure rates of each specific item, and then the system as a whole.

As others have stated, it all boils down to the accountants setting precedents in regards to cost, and also design standards and industry standards. In case you were unaware, if an engineer professionally signs off on the design of a part that design is proven to be significantly flawed or does not meet the necessary criteria/specification, that engineer is looking at the loss of his job. These people don't make mistakes like that, they are forced to work around the BS rules and precedents set by the accountants/management.

I also agree with you concerning the two engines, the only thing they share in common is the layout of the crank shaft. I think the Ferrari suffers a lot less from vibrations primarily due to the different firing order. The middle cylinders on each bank fire in unison, with the outer 4 having their own unique timing, so who knows, that could have a significant impact on the vibration/harmonic characteristics of the engine.

 

[Strokerswild]

As an engineer, I assure you that an item on the wish list for an engine such as the FPC would be a top-shelf oil pump.

It's the bean counters that ruin everything and cut corners. Us engineers are gods of sorts.

 

[Mustang1260]

I have reason to believe my oil pump is going. I have posted about ticking and the loud valve train noises, today I noticed my oil pressure was lower than normal at idle, usually it's around 50, today it was closer to 25. Also heard some whirring noises today crusing around. Oil level is to the top dot, so I don't have low oil. Looked up signs of a failing oil pump, and every one of these symptoms were signs. Now my dillemna, do I just wait for the engine to go and get a new one, or do I bring it in and have the pump looked at after there could have already been damage from excessive wear to my engine?

FORD- NOW!
You guys all know that the Internet can live on forever....

You just told the world your engine is 'off' and it may be oil related and yet you drive it...engine goes and Ford can potentially point the big finger at you and say you broke it, you pay for it.

Your on notice that oil pressure is way off, it is making sounds, and yet your thinking of driving it until it blows...

You guys think Ford Service monitors these forums strictly out of the goodness of their hearts, they record this stuff. If a blown GT350 motor shows up in FL very soon they (Ford) are gonna know about this chain.

Take the car in immediately.

 

[Voodooo]

Engineering disaster? OK, as you wish.
Forums are wonderful things. Everyone gets to voice an opinion.
But one day in the not-too-distant future, we will know. If the oil pump is defective, Ford will quietly supercede it. Every Ford parts guy and all of us will know the truth.
And I will get to say the words that everyone loves to hear, "you were right and I was wrong".
I hope you will show me that same courtesy.

I didn't mean the voodoo as a engineering disaster. I'm saying they are not always right and do not always make the best decisions. Don't always blame the bean counters.

 

[Voodooo]

Scott, your opinions and knowledge in these subject areas are no doubt extensive and greatly appreciated by those of us reading, but I feel as though you are labeling "bad design" without full background knowledge of the subject matter.

If this were the case, then in reality as ForgedWheeler has stated, every engine produced by every manufacturer would be a "bad design" because they never are built with the absolute best parts possible. Engineers are absolutely not gods by no means, but when you consider an engine that begins in concept typically 3-4 years before production, design flaws are very, very unlikely. Engineers can't control the assembly process, nor can they control defects in sourced materials from outside vendors. All design is based off of the parts being made in near perfect condition, with no errors in the assembly, taking into account the individual failure rates of each specific item, and then the system as a whole.

As others have stated, it all boils down to the accountants setting precedents in regards to cost, and also design standards and industry standards. In case you were unaware, if an engineer professionally signs off on the design of a part that design is proven to be significantly flawed or does not meet the necessary criteria/specification, that engineer is looking at the loss of his job. These people don't make mistakes like that, they are forced to work around the BS rules and precedents set by the accountants/management.

I also agree with you concerning the two engines, the only thing they share in common is the layout of the crank shaft. I think the Ferrari suffers a lot less from vibrations primarily due to the different firing order. The middle cylinders on each bank fire in unison, with the outer 4 having their own unique timing, so who knows, that could have a significant impact on the vibration/harmonic characteristics of the engine.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. The "engineers" know the vibrations of the voodoo, everyone knows the importance of oil and oil pressure. It's no secret the opg's in all of fords mod motors are a weakink. My point is this is "fords words are" "our most powerful na engine ever". Get it? And they skimp on a cheap ass powdered metal gear. Why would "anyone" take the chance? You can lab test anything but in the real world the effects are different.

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