2017 gt350 engine failure

[oregongt350]

Failures

Are there not failures in all Mfg ?? At what point is it acceptable or not, I'm sure
Ford has a number in mind, roughly 10,000 5.2 L FPC mfg how many failures
out of that batch of motors 1-2 % ?? The OPG may be substandard but not a complete blunder on their part. I would assume that if it truly were a blunder we would see a recall, cheaper to replace the whole gear than it is to replace a motor. Remember its all about the money even to a billion dollar Corporation.

:ford::ford::ford::ford:

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[Strokerswild]

To me, the Voodoo would warrant a better OPG setup just because of 1) the increased order of magnitude of vibration/harmonics from the FPC, and 2) the zany redline.

The engineers had to realize this, since the cons of a FPC have been known for years, not to mention the known fragility of modular OPGs....

I blame the bean counters 100%.

 

[HISSMAN]

I agree on that. Ford says they fought vibrations throughout development. One would think that the OPG would have been looked at.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. The "engineers" know the vibrations of the voodoo, everyone knows the importance of oil and oil pressure. It's no secret the opg's in all of fords mod motors are a weakink. My point is this is "fords words are" "our most powerful na engine ever". Get it? And they skimp on a cheap ass powdered metal gear. Why would "anyone" take the chance? You can lab test anything but in the real world the effects are different.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you regarding the fact that the gears should be better than what is provided. But understanding the processes that each part goes through during the design is also important in understanding why said parts were chosen/changed/left alone from one application to the next. I really do wish they were better from the factory, but I can absolutely assure you that if you were privy to the numbers/calculations that were ran, it was in Ford's best interest to leave them alone. They know they will spend a lot less money replacing engines than they would if they sourced another supplier for their gears, and also had to go through the entire verification/testing processes again for that part.

End of the day, us the consumer are never in the company's best interest unfortunately. As much as the engineers behind the Voodoo may be car enthusiasts just like us, they are absolutely restrained by entire books worth of codes/regulations/criterion that they must adhere too, with cost being equally as important in the eyes of the managers.

I for one will leave the OEM gear as is while the warranty remains, ensuring the oil is always brought to full operating temperature before "getting on it" to minimize whatever level of risk there may be there. I trust in the numbers game enough to wait, as long as I treat it properly. Once the warranty nears its expiration date, those TSS gears and anything else that we determine over the next 2-3 years as weak links will all be replaced

Unless I can get something in writing that says my warranty will not be affected by the installation of an aftermarket OPG that is, in which case I would do it next week

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

I agree on that. Ford says they fought vibrations throughout development. One would think that the OPG would have been looked at.

I can guarantee you that it was. End of the day, after they tested the motor and ran the numbers, it didn't present itself as too great a risk or landed within their internal "acceptable failure rate" zone. That combined with the fact that they are given specific thresholds in regards to cost, it was decided that they would invest that money elsewhere in the car. I would bet they would do a lot of things differently had they been given a blank check, but unfortunately that is never the case.

 

[mustang1]

... As others have stated, it all boils down to the accountants setting precedents in regards to cost, and also design standards and industry standards. ...

Quite a bit of blame on the bean counters but GT350 buyers are paying a premium for a limited production car, above and beyond the engineering and manufacturing. There is no reason for the bean counters to nickle and dime such a part. Build the engine with the billet OPG, increase the price another $500, advertise the upgrade, profit.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

Quite a bit of blame on the bean counters but GT350 buyers are paying a premium for a limited production car, above and beyond the engineering and manufacturing. There is no reason for the bean counters to nickle and dime such a part. Build the engine with the billet OPG, increase the price another $500, advertise the upgrade, profit.

I absolutely agree, and I wish they would have done that. But if you took the same outlook at every individual part of the car as a whole, you'd end up with a $150,000 Mustang (random $$ number) as opposed to a "value" $55K sports car.

And I can tell you first hand at the end of the day it all boils down to cost. Should they nickel and dime something that is largely insignificant to Ford as a whole? Hell no, they make more money in a few months off of F150's than they will off of the entire production run of GT350's, but try explaining that to the guys at the top who may get a bonus that correlates to their profit margins. To those guys, they don't care if it is a Shelby or a Fiesta, all they look at are numbers on a page.

 

[PatrickGT]

It's not like a revised OPG would put a major dents in gross profit margins if it were spread across every vehicle that would accept the revised part.

Probably under $1/car for parts only, $10/car including engineering man hours. That's the thing that a lot of people miss, it's not like they just need it here... it would be better in every instance.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I can guarantee you that it was. End of the day, after they tested the motor and ran the numbers, it didn't present itself as too great a risk or landed within their internal "acceptable failure rate" zone. That combined with the fact that they are given specific thresholds in regards to cost, it was decided that they would invest that money elsewhere in the car. I would bet they would do a lot of things differently had they been given a blank check, but unfortunately that is never the case.

It is entirely possible, if not probable, that the powdered metal Oil Pump Gears are perfectly adequate for this application and not a single failure attributable to the gears occurred in testing or in service. They may actually be preferable to billet parts because of the precise manufacturing techniques involved with PM. This whole thread is based upon opinion and anecdotal evidence with zero basis in fact. ZERO.
It went from "my engine broke and has to be replaced" to "it's the oil pump gears, how DARE they put such cheap parts in our beloved GT350s!"
It's like a Big Boy version of the childhood game "Telephone".
Shakespeare would call this "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

 

[mustang1]

I absolutely agree, and I wish they would have done that. But if you took the same outlook at every individual part of the car as a whole, you'd end up with a $150,000 Mustang (random $$ number) as opposed to a "value" $55K sports car.

And I can tell you first hand at the end of the day it all boils down to cost. Should they nickel and dime something that is largely insignificant to Ford as a whole? Hell no, they make more money in a few months off of F150's than they will off of the entire production run of GT350's, but try explaining that to the guys at the top who may get a bonus that correlates to their profit margins. To those guys, they don't care if it is a Shelby or a Fiesta, all they look at are numbers on a page.

they can nickle and dime other parts but the OPG should be a high end part because it's a very simple part, and it can result in a new long block, not just a short block. GT350 is show room floor car. It pulls people into dealership who dream about such a car and then get a Mustang EB/ GT or an F150. It generates sales just by existing.

 

[J_Maher_AMG]

It is entirely possible, if not probable, that the powdered metal Oil Pump Gears are perfectly adequate for this application and not a single failure attributable to the gears occurred in testing or in service. They may actually be preferable to billet parts because of the precise manufacturing techniques involved with PM. This whole thread is based upon opinion and anecdotal evidence with zero basis in fact. ZERO.
It went from "my engine broke and has to be replaced" to "it's the oil pump gears, how DARE they put such cheap parts in our beloved GT350s!"
It's like a Big Boy version of the childhood game "Telephone".
Shakespeare would call this "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Absolutely, and I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking about this from Ford's perspective, rather than just blindly following the mob, grabbing my pitchfork without considering all of the potential aspects.

they can nickle and dime other parts but the OPG should be a high end part because it's a very simple part, and it can result in a new long block, not just a short block. GT350 is show room floor car. It pulls people into dealership who dream about such a car and then get a Mustang EB/ GT or an F150. It generates sales just by existing.

Should yes, but I don't think you're following... The car attracts people regardless. You honestly think more than 0.02% of the population in the US has even ever heard of a failure of a GT350?

Math is easy. Based on costs and risks calculated, it cost Ford less money to not replace the gears (based on ALL of the aspects of introducing a new, unknown part discussed above) than it would be if they had to replace ALL of the engines that FELL WITHIN their acceptable failure rate zone.

Not sure why this is so hard for people to understand. Coulda, shoulda, woulda is all well and good, and as I've said I wish they were better from the factory, but it isn't rocket science when considering the reasons why something wasn't done the way we the consumer would have wished.

Numbers aren't emotional, they don't take into account pride or ambition or anything else. Risk is calculated and compared to cost, the only two things that matter to them. And for the people at the top making the decisions on $ ceilings for projects, the numbers are the ONLY thing that matters to them, whether it be a car, a toaster or a shovel that they producing it is completely irrelevant.

 

[Voodooo]

You na Sayers kill me. First of all stop blaming the bean counters for everything. Second a stronger set of opg's would not add that much to a engines cost! You all think just because aftermarket gears cost $200-$500 that it also cost ford the same amount to supply them. That's stupid thinking.
If the bean counters controlled everything we wouldn't have a fpc, a new block, new heads, tr3160, carbon fiber wheels, brembo brakes, unique rotors, etc.
we are talking about a OPG in a engine that red lines to 8250rpm. I can't believe some of you think that all the engineering that went into this engine that ford took the cheap easy way and reused the same material and opg's from the 5.0 that fail all the time in a supercharged engine. A supercharger also adds vibrations and is also the cause of the 5.0 OPG failure.

 

[oregongt350]

Failures

It's not like a revised OPG would put a major dents in gross profit margins if it were spread across every vehicle that would accept the revised part.

Probably under $1/car for parts only, $10/car including engineering man hours. That's the thing that a lot of people miss, it's not like they just need it here... it would be better in every instance.

1.00 per car are you kidding me, I can't buy a cup of coffee for a buck.

:ford::ford::ford::ford:

 

[HISSMAN]

Actually he's not that far off. When you can buy a bulk of 100+K of an item per year, you can really get it on the cheap. Probably no more than $1-$5 per OPG unit over what they are paying for the OEM powdered version. I don't think most mustang owners would even notice an extra $20 on the MSRP if you wanted to even go that far.

 

[Voodooo]

Explain this to me.
Ford built their most powerful V8 production engine ever they say. The voodoo has a specific block, heads, intake, exhaust, crank, rods, Pistons, oil pan, cams, oil pump housing and of all the things they skimp on is to reuse the 5.0 powdered metal opg's. On a engine that turns 8250 rpm, vibrates and makes more hp and tq then a 5.0. I can not believe some of you do not get it. You want to argue the facts! Ford will never admit it but they fked up using the wrong opg's for this engine. If you want to wait around and pray it does t happen to you then be my guest. I'll put my own guarantee on it. It's the opg's that fail.
If for example it's something else that's causing the oil pressure drop, it would give warning before hand. Before the low oil pressure light. If a cam phaser goes, if a valve spring breaks, if a bearing spins, you'll know it before the low oil pressure warning comes on. What do I know.
I'm also working on possibly going to a dry oiling system.

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