2017 gt350 engine failure

[mustang1]

And the Voodoo doesn't cost Ford anywhere near $30k. More like $5k for a long block. If that.

According to a previous post, a new Voodoo was a $25k line item on the invoice. That was a warranty repair. It would be tough if it was out of warranty.

Sheesh. Powdered metal is not the ideal material. But It has very high tensile strength and wear resistance but not impact resistance. It is not ductile, but brittle. You are focusing on the pump as the cause. I suspect Ford already knows the cause and also knows pump gears are not the issue. They are not going to tell us the cause.
By all means keep guessing. It makes for good forum entertainment ��

brittle seems like a cause

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[Minn19]

And the Voodoo doesn't cost Ford anywhere near $30k. More like $5k for a long block. If that.

According to a previous post, a new Voodoo was a $25k line item on the invoice. That was a warranty repair. It would be tough if it was out of warranty.



brittle seems like a cause

My dealer showed me the invoices. List (if you or I paid the dealer for the work) would've been around 23k for the engine and labor. The dealer told me they got paid 17-18k for the engine and labor to replace. Either number is not cheap.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

My dealer showed me the invoices. List (if you or I paid the dealer for the work) would've been around 23k for the engine and labor. The dealer told me they got paid 17-18k for the engine and labor to replace. Either number is not cheap.

What Ford prices their engines for and what they actually cost Ford to make are two very different numbers. I stand by my $5k cost for a long block.
My close friend works at BMW motorsport. They charge $24,000 for a 2015/2016 M5/M6 long block. BMW manufacturing cost is $6600. Jus'sayin'.

But again, my point is that the damaged oil pump is likely the victim of a failure elsewhere in the engine. Blaming the oil pump is like saying the ship sank because it filled up with water. Technically true, but not the cause.
Whoever the vendor is for this pump is on the hook. If Ford tracked a significant failure to the pump, two things would happen. First, the vendor would be covering all the cost. Second, they would supersede that part so fast it would make your head spin.
Ford operates under a Six Sigma quality system. If there were 100 engine failures attributed to an oil pump gear, that would get major attention from all the quality nazis at Ford.
Engines fail. Just because they are GT350 engines doesn't mean Ford is going to spend five cents more than they have to to achieve acceptable reliability.
You imagine that a group of engineers are sitting in a meeting saying "this GT350 engine gets only the best internals, damn the cost". Well, that is never going to happen. An Army of cost accountants are going to make them set a standard and thats what everybody meets, at the lowest possible cost.
We can dream that this is a $50k hand-built race engine with the finest internals that money can buy, but it just aint so. It's a production engine.
Ford is a profit making enterprise owned by millions of shareholders. If they don't make a reasonable profit, you'll never see another GT350, or another Ford for that matter.
I love my Shelby. It's fun to drive. It doesn't cost very much. I don't like that the pistons rattle, the shifter is a little clunky, but for $55000, just try to find something more fun.
If you're worried, get an extended warranty.

 

[Epiphany]

Ford operates under a Six Sigma quality system. If there were 100 engine failures attributed to an oil pump gear, that would get major attention from all the quality nazis at Ford.

100?

A six sigma process is one in which 99.99966% of all opportunities to produce some feature of a part are statistically expected to be free of defects (3.4 defective features per million opportunities).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Sigma

 

[HoosierDaddy]

The dealer told me they got paid 17-18k for the engine and labor to replace.

Warranty labor has no meaning to me. I bought a Ranger Edge 15 years ago that came with two bad tires. The paperwork showed a $325 labor charge to Ford for replacing two tires. Now I don't believe for a second that Ford actually paid the dealer that much.

 

[Minn19]

What Ford prices their engines for and what they actually cost Ford to make are two very different numbers. I stand by my $5k cost for a long block.
My close friend works at BMW motorsport. They charge $24,000 for a 2015/2016 M5/M6 long block. BMW manufacturing cost is $6600. Jus'sayin'.

But again, my point is that the damaged oil pump is likely the victim of a failure elsewhere in the engine. Blaming the oil pump is like saying the ship sank because it filled up with water. Technically true, but not the cause.
Whoever the vendor is for this pump is on the hook. If Ford tracked a significant failure to the pump, two things would happen. First, the vendor would be covering all the cost. Second, they would supersede that part so fast it would make your head spin.
Ford operates under a Six Sigma quality system. If there were 100 engine failures attributed to an oil pump gear, that would get major attention from all the quality nazis at Ford.
Engines fail. Just because they are GT350 engines doesn't mean Ford is going to spend five cents more than they have to to achieve acceptable reliability.
You imagine that a group of engineers are sitting in a meeting saying "this GT350 engine gets only the best internals, damn the cost". Well, that is never going to happen. An Army of cost accountants are going to make them set a standard and thats what everybody meets, at the lowest possible cost.
We can dream that this is a $50k hand-built race engine with the finest internals that money can buy, but it just aint so. It's a production engine.
Ford is a profit making enterprise owned by millions of shareholders. If they don't make a reasonable profit, you'll never see another GT350, or another Ford for that matter.
I love my Shelby. It's fun to drive. It doesn't cost very much. I don't like that the pistons rattle, the shifter is a little clunky, but for $55000, just try to find something more fun.
If you're worried, get an extended warranty.

I'm just reporting what they told me and what I saw with my own two eyes. If the engine only cost that amount I can't imagine that they would give the dealer over $10,000 for labor.

As for the rest I get it, but I do agree with others that this was a silly area to cut cost on an already high profit product. It makes me wonder where else the cut corners unneccasarily. Which, as you theorize that something else beside the OPG is causing the engine failures and we will find out where else they cut corners.

 

[mustang1]

...
If you're worried, get an extended warranty.

part of the concern is that those that need a new engine could have that show up on a carfax / oasis, potentially reducing resale value. And then there is what might be a nearly new, high end car sit in shop for an extended amount of time, getting a going over by the dealership. Which may or may not involve torquing bolts to factory, protecting the paint, cleaning the engine bay, interior smells, joy riding, etc. All over a very simple part. And you can't upgrade the part, as that may void the engine warranty.

Maybe Ford should offer billet gears in their GT350 Price & Build page. $475 option. What do you think would be the take rate? Will anyone go for the $475 racing stripe but pass on the billet gears?

 

[Minn19]

Warranty labor has no meaning to me. I bought a Ranger Edge 15 years ago that came with two bad tires. The paperwork showed a $325 labor charge to Ford for replacing two tires. Now I don't believe for a second that Ford actually paid the dealer that much.

They showed me both sets of paperwork. The paperwork the customer gets with the inflated/fake pricing and their own internal paperwork between Ford and them showing what they actually got paid.

So take it for it's worth.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

part of the concern is that those that need a new engine could have that show up on a carfax / oasis, potentially reducing resale value. And then there is what might be a nearly new, high end car sit in shop for an extended amount of time, getting a going over by the dealership. Which may or may not involve torquing bolts to factory, protecting the paint, cleaning the engine bay, interior smells, joy riding, etc. All over a very simple part. And you can't upgrade the part, as that may void the engine warranty.

Maybe Ford should offer billet gears in their GT350 Price & Build page. $475 option. What do you think would be the take rate? Will anyone go for the $475 racing stripe but pass on the billet gears?

Yikes! I'm not agreeing with what Ford is doing. I know that changing an engine is a royal PITA. What we don't know is way more than what we do. Are the gears the culprit, or just a consequential damage? Are there lots of engine failures, or just a handful?
The current oil pump gears may be just fine for this engine, or not. I don't know. But blaming powdered metal is ridiculous. PM connecting rods are commonplace in performance engines. Saying the gears are substandard doesn't make it true.
Making billet gears an option sounds simple. But internal engine options are non-existent. Not production friendly.
What we are guilty of here is "Olympic conclusion-jumping".
Until someone proves the gears are the cause, it's just conjecture.

 

[mustang1]

Yikes! I'm not agreeing with what Ford is doing. I know that changing an engine is a royal PITA. What we don't know is way more than what we do. Are the gears the culprit, or just a consequential damage? Are there lots of engine failures, or just a handful?
The current oil pump gears may be just fine for this engine, or not. I don't know. But blaming powdered metal is ridiculous. PM connecting rods are commonplace in performance engines. Saying the gears are substandard doesn't make it true.
Making billet gears an option sounds simple. But internal engine options are non-existent. Not production friendly.
What we are guilty of here is "Olympic conclusion-jumping".
Until someone proves the gears are the cause, it's just conjecture.

the inner gear is fairly strong but the outer gear has thinner spots that weaken the gear. Doesn't take that much to break one into pieces. I haven't bought a billet gear for test purposes but I suspect you won't be able to break one without a lot of effort, or a press.

It could be a failure somewhere else in the engine that is sending fragments through the oil pump that break the gear but I have not come across any such concerns with billet gears.

That said, two of the PD superchargers available offer engine warranties, on 500+ lb ft of torque. Granted they don't offer a lot of coverage but it's something. Which shows they are not that concerned.

Then again, the supercharged cars are probably less concerned about having their car in the shop, numbers that match, etc.

 

[machsmith]

Who in the hell here wouldn't have spent $300 more for their car with a billet gear?.
4' drop and it fractured? What a joke. I wouldn't doubt the vibrations the engine endures alone wouldn't cause it to fracture and eventually break.
This part needs to be changed out. I'll wait a year and who knows...Maybe change it or sell it.

 

[Voodooo]

What Ford prices their engines for and what they actually cost Ford to make are two very different numbers. I stand by my $5k cost for a long block.
My close friend works at BMW motorsport. They charge $24,000 for a 2015/2016 M5/M6 long block. BMW manufacturing cost is $6600. Jus'sayin'.

But again, my point is that the damaged oil pump is likely the victim of a failure elsewhere in the engine. Blaming the oil pump is like saying the ship sank because it filled up with water. Technically true, but not the cause.
Whoever the vendor is for this pump is on the hook. If Ford tracked a significant failure to the pump, two things would happen. First, the vendor would be covering all the cost. Second, they would supersede that part so fast it would make your head spin.
Ford operates under a Six Sigma quality system. If there were 100 engine failures attributed to an oil pump gear, that would get major attention from all the quality nazis at Ford.
Engines fail. Just because they are GT350 engines doesn't mean Ford is going to spend five cents more than they have to to achieve acceptable reliability.
You imagine that a group of engineers are sitting in a meeting saying "this GT350 engine gets only the best internals, damn the cost". Well, that is never going to happen. An Army of cost accountants are going to make them set a standard and thats what everybody meets, at the lowest possible cost.
We can dream that this is a $50k hand-built race engine with the finest internals that money can buy, but it just aint so. It's a production engine.
Ford is a profit making enterprise owned by millions of shareholders. If they don't make a reasonable profit, you'll never see another GT350, or another Ford for that matter.
I love my Shelby. It's fun to drive. It doesn't cost very much. I don't like that the pistons rattle, the shifter is a little clunky, but for $55000, just try to find something more fun.
If you're worried, get an extended warranty.

Listen. I agree with 95% of what you say and I'm not disputing it. But here is what you fail to realize. Just as you said, fords in business to make money and profit. They are also a business that offers a product that consumers want not need. And when you offer a product the consumer demands a warranty. Which the company provides. When anything is made it of course has a rate of failure. Doesn't matter if it's a house, car, a swimming pool, baseball bat etc. The 5.2 fpc voodoo has been proven to have vibrations. We all know it.
I'll give you one guess as to why 99% of the Motorsport world "DOES NOT USE" FPC.
Fords very own FR350S and GT4 does not use the fpc. All because of vibrations and other related issues. It's simple!
Smokey Yunick tried them in the 60s and proven they were self destructive.
Ford knows this, it's the very reason why they didn't use the fpc years and years ago in V8s. Why do you think ford didn't use the FPC in the original GT40's? Why do you think they went with the "bundle of snakes" exhaust? To get the same effect of exhaust scavenging without the vibrations from the fpc. The 5.0 is smooth, the 5.2 is not. The 5.0 doesn't vibrate, the 5.2 does. The 5.0 can survive on a powdered metal OPG without a blower the 5.2 can't survive NA because of its own vibrations will crack the OPG. I will guarantee you with the RPM and VIBRATIONS, that with less than 25,000 miles the bearings will show noticeably more wear on the 5.2 bearings over 5.0 bearings. If you honestly believe that the harmonics and vibrations do not cause failed engine parts that make metal on metal contact you are mistaken. Why do you think the 5.0 opg's fail on a supercharged engine? Because of the supercharger! The vibrations, harmonics, crank flex all put stress on the weakest link. The OPG! You do realize the job of the crank balancer correct? To control vibrations and harmonics. Imagine a tuning fork that's been struck, it rings a note. Dampen that tuning fork with a rubber band and strik the tuning fork and the ring becomes a thud. I believe that stock balancer and opg's are of a poor design and the vibrations and harmonics are the main cause of failure. You never hardly hear of a 5.0 having a failed engine due to a broken valve spring, keeper, retainer, piston, bearing, cam, chain etc. working it's way into the oil pump and jamming up the opg's and breaking them. By the time a engine component breaks, falls down to the oil pan and get sucked into the pick up tube and jammed into the OPG the engine would of already yelled help and made it noticeable to the driver. All before the low oil psi warning display. If a cam phaser let loose, if a valve spring or valve broke etc, you'd know it before the low oil psi light.
If a piston ring or bearing were to fail, and make its way into the OPG, (which is possible) but I still think would be rare. It wouldn't take a piece much larger than a few microns to destroy the OPG. But cut open you oil filter once and pour the filtered oil into a high thread count white piece of fabric and rinse away the oil and see what you find! I changed my oil at 200 miles and you'd be amazed what I found. Yet all that shit I sifted didn't destroy my opg's. "Yet".

 

[Voodooo]

100 engine failures?
What got their attention for the 8000 vehicle recall for the oil hoses? As I said it's been since October since I received my notice and yet still no hoses are available. And you tell me this.
Ford and ford performance say " we can not tell you to drive your vehicle or not"
BUT! At the same time, they instructed the dealers not to allow starting, driving or selling of any effected gt350s until the hoses are replaced. So it's ok for us to take the chance of destroying our car, engine, life or others for the sake of a fking set of hoses they can't seam to provide for 4 months now?!?!?!?
How many failed hoses have you heard of compared to failed opg's?

 

[Voodooo]

Yikes! I'm not agreeing with what Ford is doing. I know that changing an engine is a royal PITA. What we don't know is way more than what we do. Are the gears the culprit, or just a consequential damage? Are there lots of engine failures, or just a handful?
The current oil pump gears may be just fine for this engine, or not. I don't know. But blaming powdered metal is ridiculous. PM connecting rods are commonplace in performance engines. Saying the gears are substandard doesn't make it true.
Making billet gears an option sounds simple. But internal engine options are non-existent. Not production friendly.
What we are guilty of here is "Olympic conclusion-jumping".
Until someone proves the gears are the cause, it's just conjecture.

Did you ever think Bruce Jenner would become a fking woman after winning the Olympics and being on a box of Wheaties? Now the freak is pitching for Amazon women.

 

[HISSMAN]

It would be nice if they would share info. Especially since a certain percentage of GT350'schedule are turned into full on race cars and have no warranty. It would be like them not sharing probable fail points with their own race teams.

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