2017 gt350 engine failure

[olaosunt]

I used the GT 350 oil pump and pan in my KB car but I swapped out the gears first.

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[Voodooo]

An old bearing trick would be to dowel the bearings from spinning. Usually if a rod bearing is worn or spins, oil pressure will drop at idle. If a cam or main bearing is worn or spins, oil pressure will be lost at all RPM levels.
The oil pump pressure relief valve is for over pressuring. I guess now that I think about it, when I start my car when it's cold (first start of the day) the oil psi is at least 100 psi. It's possible the failed ones were above 100 psi and the relief valve opened and didn't close and were stuck shut and that will cause oil pressure loss.

 

[Voodooo]

Something just occurred to me. Could a failure such as a spun main bearing cause enough sudden oil pressure build up to cause it to break/shatter?

What if all of the oil pump failures that ever occurred were a secondary effect of another engine failure that blocked the oil? For example, take an engine with a billet set of OPGs - it spins a bearing and that's it. The RCA is a spun bearing and the damage associated with that. If that same engine only had a cast OPG gearset, it could potentially shatter from the instant pressure - in which case, the spun bearing would be blamed on the OPG failure, not the other way around. Clear as mud??

This could explain why there NEVER seems to be an engine that suffers an OPG failure that doesn't have some other oiling-related failure.

I've never seen a Babbitt bearing "shatter or break" spin or wear yes. But to have it physically come apart in pieces, none that I ever seen.

 

[NipSC4328]

An old bearing trick would be to dowel the bearings from spinning. Usually if a rod bearing is worn or spins, oil pressure will drop at idle. If a cam or main bearing is worn or spins, oil pressure will be lost at all RPM levels.
The oil pump pressure relief valve is for over pressuring. I guess now that I think about it, when I start my car when it's cold (first start of the day) the oil psi is at least 100 psi. It's possible the failed ones were above 100 psi and the relief valve opened and didn't close and were stuck shut and that will cause oil pressure loss.

I've got to check this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen well over 100 psi cold ... wonder what the spec for the spring is?

 

[Voodooo]

I've got to check this, but I'm pretty sure I've seen well over 100 psi cold ... wonder what the spec for the spring is?

I've monitored my oil temps and psi at almost every start up. On a cold first start the oil psi is 100 at idle. Then it slowly drops to about 75psi at 160 degrees at idle.

Id be curious to know what the spring pressure is rated at also.

 

[Hack]

Thank you and exactly!
No way in hell did they push the car on the dyno, strap it in place and redline it. Had they done that, the opg's would of failed. Period.

No way is the factory OPG as fragile as you make it out to be. No way. Ford builds far too many engines to take that risk of having to swap them out due to failed OPGs.

Its funny that the OPG is being blamed. Ford did not tell me or the others I've chatted with about their engine failures. Ford wont release details of the engine failures so really it is all SPECULATION.

Yup.

Something just occurred to me. Could a failure such as a spun main bearing cause enough sudden oil pressure build up to cause it to break/shatter?

What if all of the oil pump failures that ever occurred were a secondary effect of another engine failure that blocked the oil?

This could explain why there NEVER seems to be an engine that suffers an OPG failure that doesn't have some other oiling-related failure.

Yes a spun bearing could cause a pressure shift or more likely - a bunch of debris to go through the engine. Debris and positive displacement pumps don't like each other.

 

[Voodooo]

No way is the factory OPG as fragile as you make it out to be. No way. Ford builds far too many engines to take that risk of having to swap them out due to failed OPGs.



Yup.



Yes a spun bearing could cause a pressure shift or more likely - a bunch of debris to go through the engine. Debris and positive displacement pumps don't like each other.

No where did I say every gear is going to fail. But the opg's are made of powdered metal. Powdered metal is porous. Powdered metal can also be weaker than cast. All powdered metal is, is granular metal pressed together in a mold to make a specific part. It is not as strong as you think. Especially on a wearing part that goes through vibrations, heat cycles, stress, pressure.
Will they all fail? Nope.
Will more fail? Yep.

You can say it's not the opg's failing and that it's all speculation, that's fine. Do you really think fords going to tell you? I have dealt with ford on failed parts more than I can count. Even when proven what the cause is, they will do what they want to benefit them. I have had 7 F550 super duty trucks lose transmissions. All under 20,000 miles. All are 6 speed automatics. The first time one went out I took it back to the dealer for warranty. They refused to cover it because they said the pto was at fault. The didn't even know how to operate the pto and they just assumed because it had a pto that it was the cause.
Problem number 1.
The pto was not the cause of the failure. The transmission pump was. How do I know?
Because I was there. I had the mechanic remove the transmission from the truck, once the pto was removed I tore the pto apart and it had absolutely no damage or faults at all. To prove and to back up my findings I sent the pto back to munci for them to inspect. They also said they found no problems with the pto what so ever.

Problem number 2.
Once I removed the pto, I had the mechanic tear down the transmission while I stood there watching. He was reluctant and after the shop manager agreeded on he went.
All the cluches were fried and the pump was bad. Each clutch pack was burnt from heat and was determined the pump was the cause.

Ford was fast and quick to blame the pto which was never the cause. They wanted to take the easy cheap way out and got their way and still charged nearly $7500 for the final bill. This is on a truck that had less then 20k miles.
I went through this 6 more times on 6 different trucks. All with the same year, same chassis, same engine, same options, some with pto's some without. But all had the same issue. Ford will tell you what they want you to know and if they don't want you to know anything they won't tell you anything either.

I don't care if the opg's are the cause or not, after a long history of mod motors having the opg's as the root cause. Ford dropped the ball.
Why would any engineer make a superior wet sump oiling system designed with a windage tray, baffles, molded pick up tube etc. and use some cheap ass powdered metal knowing this engine is built to see high RPM and high oil pressure, and most importantly high vibrations!?!?
Everyone knows the gears are the same on the 5.0 and 5.2. Everyone know how fragile the 5.0 gears are on blower and turbo cars. The voodoo makes more vibrations and ford knew that. Like I keep saying.
The oil pump housing is mounted to the block.
The outer OPG is centered by the housing.
The inner OPG is driven by the crank snout.
The voodoo has a lot of vibrations, the vibrations transmitted to the opg's will cause it to fail.
The crank snout will flex at RPM's.
Look at the OPG clearance. It's measured in thousands of an inch. The crank snout may flex enough to change this clearance and close this gap and that causes metal on metal contact. This can lead to over stressing the weak OPG and cause it to break.
The weakest link in the oil pump are the gears. Look at it yourself, the shape alone is weak just by design. It's full of edges and changes in dimensions.
Plus it's made of a non desirable material.

 

[Voodooo]

No way is the factory OPG as fragile as you make it out to be. No way. Ford builds far too many engines to take that risk of having to swap them out due to failed OPGs.



Yup.



Yes a spun bearing could cause a pressure shift or more likely - a bunch of debris to go through the engine. Debris and positive displacement pumps don't like each other.

One more point.
Ford does make a lot of vehicles and engines to take risk. Manufacturing is a risk as is any business you sell.
Then explain why they still haven't pushed the oil hose repair. They admit it's a faulty part but yet here we are almost 4 months into it and still no replacement hoses. You live in a little world if you honestly think any company the size of ford, GM, Chrysler, Honda, Toyota etc are going to tell you everything.

 

[stanglife]

No where did I say every gear is going to fail. But the opg's are made of powdered metal. Powdered metal is porous. Powdered metal can also be weaker than cast. All powdered metal is, is granular metal pressed together in a mold to make a specific part. It is not as strong as you think. Especially on a wearing part that goes through vibrations, heat cycles, stress, pressure.
Will they all fail? Nope.
Will more fail? Yep.

You can say it's not the opg's failing and that it's all speculation, that's fine. Do you really think fords going to tell you? I have dealt with ford on failed parts more than I can count. Even when proven what the cause is, they will do what they want to benefit them. I have had 7 F550 super duty trucks lose transmissions. All under 20,000 miles. All are 6 speed automatics. The first time one went out I took it back to the dealer for warranty. They refused to cover it because they said the pto was at fault. The didn't even know how to operate the pto and they just assumed because it had a pto that it was the cause.
Problem number 1.
The pto was not the cause of the failure. The transmission pump was. How do I know?
Because I was there. I had the mechanic remove the transmission from the truck, once the pto was removed I tore the pto apart and it had absolutely no damage or faults at all. To prove and to back up my findings I sent the pto back to munci for them to inspect. They also said they found no problems with the pto what so ever.

Problem number 2.
Once I removed the pto, I had the mechanic tear down the transmission while I stood there watching. He was reluctant and after the shop manager agreeded on he went.
All the cluches were fried and the pump was bad. Each clutch pack was burnt from heat and was determined the pump was the cause.

Ford was fast and quick to blame the pto which was never the cause. They wanted to take the easy cheap way out and got their way and still charged nearly $7500 for the final bill. This is on a truck that had less then 20k miles.
I went through this 6 more times on 6 different trucks. All with the same year, same chassis, same engine, same options, some with pto's some without. But all had the same issue. Ford will tell you what they want you to know and if they don't want you to know anything they won't tell you anything either.

I don't care if the opg's are the cause or not, after a long history of mod motors having the opg's as the root cause. Ford dropped the ball.
Why would any engineer make a superior wet sump oiling system designed with a windage tray, baffles, molded pick up tube etc. and use some cheap ass powdered metal knowing this engine is built to see high RPM and high oil pressure, and most importantly high vibrations!?!?
Everyone knows the gears are the same on the 5.0 and 5.2. Everyone know how fragile the 5.0 gears are on blower and turbo cars. The voodoo makes more vibrations and ford knew that. Like I keep saying.
The oil pump housing is mounted to the block.
The outer OPG is centered by the housing.
The inner OPG is driven by the crank snout.
The voodoo has a lot of vibrations, the vibrations transmitted to the opg's will cause it to fail.
The crank snout will flex at RPM's.
Look at the OPG clearance. It's measured in thousands of an inch. The crank snout may flex enough to change this clearance and close this gap and that causes metal on metal contact. This can lead to over stressing the weak OPG and cause it to break.
The weakest link in the oil pump are the gears. Look at it yourself, the shape alone is weak just by design. It's full of edges and changes in dimensions.
Plus it's made of a non desirable material.

I'll politely point out that at the same time you say everyone is speculating, you also say that Ford will never tell you what the problem is, but then go on to speculate some yourself. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.

I've often wondered how the end of a crankshaft could have so much deflection or even vibration that it could cause the gears to fail but not kill bearings and other related parts. If you pull the bolts out of an oil pump, there's a little bit of "play" so it's hard for me to imagine how much the crank would need to bend to take that up. My mind is still on the possibility that something else fails that causes the oil pumps to break but we have it backwards. Why else would Ford continue to put them in?

I don't know. I could end up buying one from TSS anyway. It is cheap insurance, regardless.

 

[machsmith]

In my machining experience, I can tell you that any kind of thin walled part with porosity under this kind high load is likely to fail, but depends on the severity of the porosity.
Ive machined castings similar to the wall thikness of that gear that looks like in the thin areas, .187 or .250, just break apart while machining or fall apart after I took them out of the fixture. Sometimes I'd just face the part and see the porosity was so bad id just stop machining and throw them out because I'd know they were going to break.
I'm not saying I know this is what it us but I can tell you that porosity is something that is terrible in material. You don't want any of it anywhere. If it is spaced evenly it might hold up, but its never usually like that, it usually has a blob in an area severely weakening an area. Some loads of parts I've done were OK holding up on the fixture and machining process while others didn't make it. I can just imagine the pressures this pump endures. Scary.. I'll drive my car but until findings are released I won't be pounding on it. I'll let her warm up real good and keep her under 4,000.

 

[Voodooo]

I'll politely point out that at the same time you say everyone is speculating, you also say that Ford will never tell you what the problem is, but then go on to speculate some yourself. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.

I've often wondered how the end of a crankshaft could have so much deflection or even vibration that it could cause the gears to fail but not kill bearings and other related parts. If you pull the bolts out of an oil pump, there's a little bit of "play" so it's hard for me to imagine how much the crank would need to bend to take that up. My mind is still on the possibility that something else fails that causes the oil pumps to break but we have it backwards. Why else would Ford continue to put them in?

I don't know. I could end up buying one from TSS anyway. It is cheap insurance, regardless.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. The cranks OPG is sandwiched between the balancer, timing gear, and crank snout shoulder stop. We all know the voodoo vibrations are harsh.
I believe the reasons the 5.0 opg's fail on FI cars is because the blowers belt increases these vibrations. The same harmonics that I believe cause the OPG failures on the voodoo. You're correct it's all speculation. But I'm sticking with my theory and swapping out my gears. I'll either go with boundary or tss. I know boundary gears are made of 4140 I'm not sure on tss. I will not buy mmr due to the fact I don't care for the way they do business and are just in the business to sell any and everything whether it's needed or not. But also because I rather use 4140 over 9310. 4140 has more strength.

 

[GT_Dave]

No where did I say every gear is going to fail. But the opg's are made of powdered metal. Powdered metal is porous. Powdered metal can also be weaker than cast. All powdered metal is, is granular metal pressed together in a mold to make a specific part. It is not as strong as you think. Especially on a wearing part that goes through vibrations, heat cycles, stress, pressure.

You are making generalizations about powdered metal components that may or may not be true in the case of these OPG's. Powdered metal parts can be stronger than forged or billet parts, depending on how they are processed and heat treated. This is mostly due to the unilateral grain structure that develops as compared to a directional grain in a normal forging. Most steel components in high end race cars, such as connecting rods and valve train components use powdered metal technology due to the higher strength and weight advantage.

 

[Voodooo]

You are making generalizations about powdered metal components that may or may not be true in the case of these OPG's. Powdered metal parts can be stronger than forged or billet parts, depending on how they are processed and heat treated. This is mostly due to the unilateral grain structure that develops as compared to a directional grain in a normal forging. Most steel components in high end race cars, such as connecting rods and valve train components use powdered metal technology due to the higher strength and weight advantage.

Sorry but I disagree with that.

 

[machsmith]

Most places change to billet or forged parts in most applications, not to powdered metal tech. This tells you something right there.
Also no where on God's green earth would porosity, especially in a thin walled part be good...no where, it severely weakens the part.

Not saying this type of part couldn't last but it's not ideal. Also, this may be just poor quality control on the manufacturer too.

 

[Hack]

No where did I say every gear is going to fail.

No way in hell did they push the car on the dyno, strap it in place and redline it. Had they done that, the opg's would of failed. Period.
.

Huh.

I guess when you say a lot eventually you will say some things that contradict. I would like to see the best of everything in the Voodoo engine. I bet most of us would.

I'm not saying Ford does everything perfectly or that they never try to get out of spending money to fix something that was their fault. I'm not even saying I trust Ford. What I am saying is that I don't know. I would be willing to bet there are good reasons for the way the parts are currently constructed. Hopefully it's not only cost, and hopefully most failures that end up with broken OPGs originate somewhere else.

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