2017 gt350 engine failure

[krt22]

Having a different OPG would make it a different engine? :shrug:

The R has many other upgraded parts for track duty, why not the OPG?

From a top level assembly standpoint it becomes its own unique part. They would essentially have to order/stock two different oil pump assemblies which would then be create two unique engines. If the form/fit/function changes between two assemblies they are no longer the same


If ford felt there was significant value in the change, I think you would have seen it on all builds. From a warranty/statistics standpoint there are likely to be far more base GT350s at the track and GT350Rs, despite the GT350R being the "racier" version

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[mustang1]

Yes they were powder metal as were all the 4.6 / 5.4 modulars except the '05 Ford GT

if this is the case, its hard to imagine Ford is worried about the OPG. Failures here can easily be attributed to manufacturing defect. There hasn't been many failures even with the FI crowd, many of whom are running the stock gear and stock balancer.

2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 - Instrumented Test
Power: 662 hp @ 6500 rpm
Torque: 631 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm

 

[Voodooo]

Ever run 15w40 in a gas engine during the winter months? 15w40 is thicker in cold temps then 5w50. Never had an engine fail running 15w40 in any season. Both oils are rated winter (w)
The (w) means winter, not weight.
The 5w50 flows enough at 40c much like a 5w30.
Were talking opg's pumping oil not concrete.
You are proving my points.

just to add to your post:


In a 10w-40 for example the 10w bit (W = winter, not weight or watt or anything else for that matter) simply means that the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity/flow at low temperature. The lower the "W" number the better the oil's cold temperature/cold start performance.

Source: GOOGLE[/QUOTE]

Yes I know. My point is 5w50 and 5w30 have similar flow at 40c

 

[Falconetti]

just to add to your post:


In a 10w-40 for example the 10w bit (W = winter, not weight or watt or anything else for that matter) simply means that the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity/flow at low temperature. The lower the "W" number the better the oil's cold temperature/cold start performance.

Source: GOOGLE

Yes I know. My point is 5w50 and 5w30 have similar flow at 40c[/QUOTE]

I wasnt sure if everyone was following along and thought that may be a clearly articulated explanation of the W, not that I really know where this thread is going anyway.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Having a different OPG would make it a different engine? :shrug:

The R has many other upgraded parts for track duty, why not the OPG?

Because the composite metal oil pump gear works just fine.
There is not one shred of proof that even a single GT350 or Gr350R engine has failed because of it.

 

[Mspeedster]

Here's another thought. Fomoco built a flat plane crank and spent all this time, money and testing into the crank to help eliminate vibrations. Yeah some here said the bean counters control the build. Fomoco could of eliminated this all by using a 5.2 cpc that makes the same or more power, has less vibrations, and is more durable. Neither the FR350S nor the GT4 or the 5.2 crate engine use the fpc. The whole fpc was just a sales pitch. I would gladly give up my fpc for more of something else. The GT4 and FR350S use the cpc because it gives more Low end tq, vibrates less, is more durable and is proven to last. The cpc helps the car accelerate out of the turn and has more tq lower in the rpm. There is a reason why They don't use them in street and race engines.

I think the championship winning GT350R-C is proof the FPC engine is no sales pitch and is race reliable. But after running the FPC motors for a season, perhaps Ford Performance simply found it to be more economical (as in saving $$$) for them to use the Aluminator XS based crate engines for racing applications moving forward. Or, it might also be that Ford wanted to keep FPC exclusive to the GT350 and not have a FPC engine available as a crate motor.

 

[GT Pony]

Because the composite metal oil pump gear works just fine.
There is not one shred of proof that even a single GT350 or Gr350R engine has failed because of it.

I'd bet this GT350 engine failure was caused by an OPG failure. Why else would the engine lose all oil pressure without any leakage (ie blown hose, loose oil filter, etc) going on. Ford wants the whole engine sent back to Ford with no tear-down by the dealership, so no "proof", but not hard to put 2+2 together on something like this.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66091

This is what happens when the OPG fails.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1527064&postcount=12

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1541653&postcount=88

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I'd bet this GT350 engine failure was caused by an OPG failure. Why else would the engine lose all oil pressure without any leakage (ie blown hose, loose oil filter, etc) going on. Ford wants the whole engine sent back to Ford with no tear-down by the dealership, so no "proof", but not hard to put 2+2 together on something like this.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66091

This is what happens when the OPG fails.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1527064&postcount=12

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1541653&postcount=88

Pure conjecture. A failed main bearing, rod bearing, etc would cause no oil pressure. Especially a spun bearing. Ford wants the whole engine back to analyze the failure.

 

[Voodooo]

Pure conjecture. A failed main bearing, rod bearing, etc would cause no oil pressure. Especially a spun bearing. Ford wants the whole engine back to analyze the failure.

Yes and they will also never tell!

But but but you said each and every part is tested and engineered. So if a bearing fails so very well can a OPG.
Let's say it is a bearing, which I agree it very well can be. That means it either spun or the clearance changed (increased bearing clearance) Possibly due to vibrations from the nature of the fpc. This is 100% possible and I won't argue your opinion. But that can also be caused from a poor designed / manufacturered harmonic balancer, flywheel, clutch assembly, the crank itself, or bad bearings and machining.

But we'll never be told.

 

[Forgedwheeler]

Yes and they will also never tell!

But but but you said each and every part is tested and engineered. So if a bearing fails so very well can a OPG.
Let's say it is a bearing, which I agree it very well can be. That means it either spun or the clearance changed (increased bearing clearance) Possibly due to vibrations from the nature of the fpc. This is 100% possible and I won't argue your opinion. But that can also be caused from a poor designed / manufacturered harmonic balancer, flywheel, clutch assembly, the crank itself, or bad bearings and machining.

But we'll never be told.

I've seen rod bearings fail from a piece of gasket or a lump of silicone as well.
In reviewing the alleged OPG failure from the previous post, I think it likely that the Whipple blower's cylinder pressures were too much for the rod bearings at high RPM and the crank journal seized, spinning the bearings. Then a small piece of failed bearing goes into the oil pump and "bang", goodbye oil pump gears. OPG tolerances are very close, by design.
It is easy to conclude that the pump is the culprit, but I'm not convinced. If all the bearing journals showed signs of lubrication failure, it would would further support your theory, but would still not be conclusive. For example, the main bearing journals in the supercharged engine look perfect. A failed oil pump would kill the mains quickly.
Ford and their vendor can do a fatigue test on the OPGs and tell if the failure was metallurgical or foreign object damage. That't the gold standard for evaluation.

 

[Minn19]

Because the composite metal oil pump gear works just fine.
There is not one shred of proof that even a single GT350 or Gr350R engine has failed because of it.

I wouldn't say there isn't a shred of proof. There is definitely some very good circumstantial evidence. It hasn't been proven though I agree.

Edit: It will never be able to be proven as Ford will never tell what they find. Unless somebody from inside Ford leaks what the culprit is.

 

[Minn19]

From a top level assembly standpoint it becomes its own unique part. They would essentially have to order/stock two different oil pump assemblies which would then be create two unique engines. If the form/fit/function changes between two assemblies they are no longer the same


If ford felt there was significant value in the change, I think you would have seen it on all builds. From a warranty/statistics standpoint there are likely to be far more base GT350s at the track and GT350Rs, despite the GT350R being the "racier" version

I won't go down this road past this post, but I find it weird then that they can switch suspension components and quite a few other things on the R, but they can't one other part?

 

[Forgedwheeler]

I wouldn't say there isn't a shred of proof. There is definitely some very good circumstantial evidence. It hasn't been proven though I agree.

Edit: It will never be able to be proven as Ford will never tell what they find. Unless somebody from inside Ford leaks what the culprit is.

Proof is a stubborn thing.
The theory, presented in this thread numerous times, is that the Voodoo engine design creates vibration and stress on the oil pump gears that leads to their premature failure.
Given that hypothesis, one MUST conclude that engines operated in the extremes of load and RPM for extended periods would see the highest failure rate. This means that Voodoos used in racing service would see at least some increase in failure rate. After all, lap after lap at WOT and maximum RPM are the EXACT conditions alleged in the theory.
However, that is NOT what we see. We see random failures, not associated in any way with severe service or operation.
This indicates that other causes, more akin to random assembly errors or random parts failures are the culprit(s).
Ford retrieves the damaged engines and likely does a thorough failure analysis.
If most of the failures were due to a single cause, they would likely take preemptive action. They have a powerful financial incentive to do so. But they have not.
Therefore all of the evidence, except subjective opinion and anecdotes, shows the pump not to be the problem.
Not a shred of proof.

 

[mustang1]

GT500 oil pump appears to be similar to the GT350 oil pump, at that price. That car is making a lot more hp and torque with a belt driven TVS supercharger. These would still be under warranty today.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6600-F46
Stock replacement for 2013-2014 5.8L 4V Shelby GT500
Recommended for applications requiring higher volume and pressure
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[Minn19]

Proof is a stubborn thing.
The theory, presented in this thread numerous times, is that the Voodoo engine design creates vibration and stress on the oil pump gears that leads to their premature failure.
Given that hypothesis, one MUST conclude that engines operated in the extremes of load and RPM for extended periods would see the highest failure rate. This means that Voodoos used in racing service would see at least some increase in failure rate. After all, lap after lap at WOT and maximum RPM are the EXACT conditions alleged in the theory.
However, that is NOT what we see. We see random failures, not associated in any way with severe service or operation.
This indicates that other causes, more akin to random assembly errors or random parts failures are the culprit(s).
Ford retrieves the damaged engines and likely does a thorough failure analysis.
If most of the failures were due to a single cause, they would likely take preemptive action. They have not.
Therefore all of the evidence, except subjective opinion and anecdotes, shows the pump not to be the problem.
Not a shred of proof.

I'll step out of this thread after this post. I hear what you are saying and agree with most everything except the bolded parts.

Sorry, I don't fully trust Ford (or any manufacturer really) to always do the right thing without a lot of pushback from consumers etc. That is from my own personal experience.

Edit: You have stated yourself that you don't know what the issue is either and everything is conjecture, so it could be the OPG or it could be what you state it is.

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