Do you regret choosing your power adder?

[Wolfys11]

I dont know if this will add anything of value to this thread, but this is a log of my car, ESS G3 with G4 intercooler. I have my IAT sensor relocated to above the 8th cylinder in my Holley low ram manifold. This is on a 100mm pulley, on a 9.#@151 pass. IATs start at 115 and end at 127 at end of the pass. I believe the sensor gets heat soaked from sitting in the aluminum manifold. I used to run a GT350 manifold and I had my IAT sensor located just behind the throttle body. It would read 15-20 degrees cooler on that setup.

Very nice of you to provide data on the exact data we need, but never thought anyone had!

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[Wolfys11]

It took me all week but I finally caught up on this ridiculous thread. I've never seen this level of bad information or disregard when facts are posted.

This thread does lead me to believe a few of our newer members probably have truck nuts on their mustangs. Hell they probably think it's helping their iats too.

He has data to support his whipple claims, i have data to support my ess claim, wheres the disregard for facts?
Its a debate to see whos right so the others can decide which way to go with boost

 

[Wolfys11]

Is it too late to go all motor?

I have been enjoying the science behind all this though. I’ll probably keep changing my mind until I buy one lol

My friend, at the end of the day, every boost setup on a coyote is a good one. Ultimately turbos are best, but expensive and install extensive. And not necessary for not above 1000whp setups

either supercharger setup is good, good on heat, good on everything. Were getting into the details but ultimately both a centri and pd are very good, one does some stuff better, the other the other stuff

i wanna throw this one out there, if you want people to know youre boosted, go centri and a loud bov! A whipple wont get you hardly any boost noises

 

[Angrey]

So…what I’ve learnt is all boost is good. I’m in queensland Australia and my NA iat’s on an average drive are higher than wolfy’s boosted in NY.

so I need to go single turbo , e85 and interchiller.

Most interchiller setups are for a water intercooled setup. I guess you could interchill the motor coolant, but not sure that would be of much help outside of circuit racing.

And not all boost is "equal" above a certain amount. The choice of power adder below say 900 or so is pretty much pick your poison. But above that level, you'd better be able to employ sophisticated tuning for anything other than turbo (which has the biggest aftermarket support for mechanical boost controllers).

The fuel type gets a second impact/consideration. Even at lower boost levels, the choice of 93 makes some power adders more attractive than others. With E85, that tends to be reduced or go away completely.

There's a reason that most "big" builds are turbos. Aside from the efficiency, once you get to ridiculous levels of torque, you'd better have a way to feather it in by gear and a simple wastegate controller is a lot cheaper than sophisticated stand alone or crazy customized tuning (or stand alone).

 

[Zrussian13]

He has data to support his whipple claims, i have data to support my ess claim, wheres the disregard for facts?
Its a debate to see whos right so the others can decide which way to go with boost

Did you? Only thing I remember seeing was a single gear pull. Great log for your tuner to review but not long enough to provide any valuable data.

 

[engineermike]

50 mph to 120 mph, i want to say 3rd gear but i dont remember
Summer day so maybe 80-85 degrees outside
Please apologize the shitty view, i really dont use vcm scanner at all so i did what i could, but i go from 86 deg farenheit to 102. About 15 deg raise. I cant see the map sensor readout here, so if you can tell me how to find it, i can check but heres my unrefutable data of a street pull on a g3x kit, 93 pump gas from shell, manual tranny, stock clutch, g4 intercooler, bap, stock fuel pump, 4k miles on the car, gt500 injectors

let me know where the holes are to be poked in this data gentlemen

Thanks for finally posting up some real data.

You are running the 8 psi pulley, the largest intercooler they offer, and did a single gear pull from 3200 to 7600 rpm. That means your run started between 3 and 4 psi and ended around 8. So in about 6 or 7 seconds your charge temp rose 16 deg at an average of 6 psi boost. That sounds pretty believable to me.

Coincidentally, yesterday my buddy sent me a Whipple log at 18 psi to review. It wasn't quite as long a duration, but the charge temp was basically flat the whole time. <1 deg rise even though the boost was much higher. I checked some of my older single-gear pulls and found the same was true in them. And before you cry foul over the location of the temp sensor, it is definitely in the airflow path. For comparison, the Roush log I posted on page 1 has the MCT sensor tucked away deep in a hole (some Roush guys figure out ways to insert it deeper to get it into the airstream) yet it still showed the 35 deg gain in 6 seconds. Sensor response and accuracy isn't an issue here.

 

[engineermike]

surely we can figure out how many BTU/sec the AA cooler can shed at 60mph (more like 30mph flow-thru) at a given ambient, the turbine outlet air temp, and rate of heat transfer from air to the body of the cooler, and plot it. THen you can determine to 2 decimals what the IAT should be at the throttle body or intake runner.

Don't you engineering-minded motor heads spend hours on the dyno+wind tunnel under controlled conditions to measure this to a CI of 0.9?

This can all absolutely be calculated. It would take a couple of days of number crunching if you had all the necessary information. The problem is that we don't. You need accurate compressor maps to start with, and neither whipple nor ess publicize these. You also need tons of information around the intercooler tube flow area, length, tubing wall thickness, etc. I've tried this type of exercise before and you wind up making all sorts of assumptions, which skews the accuracy of the results.

 

[engineermike]

I think you have mixed up what im referencing, our debate is if centri or pd are better thermally, i wasnt talking about flows, i know a whipple will make more hp than ess, but an ess wobt take a huge loss of hp on heat when a whipple will

Nope. You said "...the supercharger itself is MUCH more effecient that the pd". I asked for supporting data, because I have supporting data that says they are even. I'm talking about efficiency, not flows, because you referenced efficiency of "the supercharger itself".

... As far as which way the data is skewed i cannot say, but im certain a whipple will not beat a centri for heat

Once again, you are certain of something which you have no data to support.

 

[engineermike]

Seems there is a bit of misunderstanding going on in here....

Some folks are suffering from severe confirmation bias.

I know I don't have confirmation bias because I've changed my viewpoint several times over the last couple of decades as the technology changed. I've had turbo air/air, centrif water/air, pd water/air, pd non-intercooled, and turbo water/air, which was thermodynamically superior to all.

One of my favorite engines is the Mercedes M139. It's a 2.0 liter 4-cylinder with a VCT, GDI, turbo, and a water/air intercooler and factory interchiller. 208 hp per liter and you can beat on it all day on pump gas and not hurt it. That's some heat management.

 

[engineermike]

I dont know if this will add anything of value to this thread, but this is a log of my car, ESS G3 with G4 intercooler. I have my IAT sensor relocated to above the 8th cylinder in my Holley low ram manifold. This is on a 100mm pulley, on a 9.#@151 pass. IATs start at 115 and end at 127 at end of the pass. I believe the sensor gets heat soaked from sitting in the aluminum manifold. I used to run a GT350 manifold and I had my IAT sensor located just behind the throttle body. It would read 15-20 degrees cooler on that setup.

Thanks for the log. Nice run! Was this log with your Snow Meth kit active?

 

[kevinvan6000]

Thanks for the log. Nice run! Was this log with your Snow Meth kit active?

No, I haven't run it since going e85.

 

[engineermike]

No, I haven't run it since going e85.

That makes sense.

In your pass, the charge temp dropped after the pass started. This is pretty common because the IAT can be high idling in the staging lanes and staging, then when the IAT falls and the thermal capacitance of the intercooler is still working, the charge temp can actually go down initially before rising. I'd say your temp rise is actually a delta off of the min temp which appears to be around 105, for a rise of about 22 deg. That's pretty low for a full pass and an air/air setup.

 

[Wolfys11]

Did you? Only thing I remember seeing was a single gear pull. Great log for your tuner to review but not long enough to provide any valuable data.

I did a 50-120 mph pull, as far as anything street related, thats 90% of any of our drives. Would you like me to log 10 consecutive pulls after each other? I didnt think thats what were looking at

 

[Wolfys11]

Thanks for finally posting up some real data.

You are running the 8 psi pulley, the largest intercooler they offer, and did a single gear pull from 3200 to 7600 rpm. That means your run started between 3 and 4 psi and ended around 8. So in about 6 or 7 seconds your charge temp rose 16 deg at an average of 6 psi boost. That sounds pretty believable to me.

Coincidentally, yesterday my buddy sent me a Whipple log at 18 psi to review. It wasn't quite as long a duration, but the charge temp was basically flat the whole time. <1 deg rise even though the boost was much higher. I checked some of my older single-gear pulls and found the same was true in them. And before you cry foul over the location of the temp sensor, it is definitely in the airflow path. For comparison, the Roush log I posted on page 1 has the MCT sensor tucked away deep in a hole (some Roush guys figure out ways to insert it deeper to get it into the airstream) yet it still showed the 35 deg gain in 6 seconds. Sensor response and accuracy isn't an issue here.

Im running the max i can for pump gas 93, ive said this many times that im able to get these temps with my setups and yall said its not possible unless im making subpar boost

 

[Wolfys11]

Nope. You said "...the supercharger itself is MUCH more effecient that the pd". I asked for supporting data, because I have supporting data that says they are even. I'm talking about efficiency, not flows, because you referenced efficiency of "the supercharger itself".



Once again, you are certain of something which you have no data to support.

I have countless testemonies of whipple/vmp owners having heat issues, and countless testemonies of centri owners specifically buying centri setups and never complaining about heat issues. That would be evidence enough for me, but you want data which i dont have and dont have the time nor the software skill to get ya

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