MMR cooling head head mod

[Angrey]

This is assuming coolant is migrating from driver side to pass side via the cooling mod. We dont know if that is true or not. It would be awesome if MMR would just post up thier testing results so we dont have to assume.

True and they create the valid skepticism on this as well as many other products they sell.

They have claims about HP improvements for cams or head work or custom intakes, etc and they never post solid, before and after results of any of it (even after being asked in forums multiple times).

So I think there's several points of contention or debate:

1) Is cylinder #8 the hottest part of the motor (even if only under certain conditions)? I think there's enough anecdotal evidence out there from multiple sources that this is the case, despite all the Ford nutswingers who are convinced Ford Engineers are some omnipotent group of wizards who always have it correct.

2) Even if hot #7/#8 temps are a problem, does adding this crossover actually help?

3) Even if it helps, is it appreciable enough to make a difference? (i.e. study after study has shown that even though wearing masks reduces transmission of airborne communicable pathogens, study after study of Covid case rates and fatalities show that mask usage, with or without as public policy doesn't move the needle. It doesn't actually do anything to affect the overall outcomes. The virus finds different avenues and vectors to spread).

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[shogun32]

Because in colder conditions, the coolant needs to get up to operating temp and once it reaches that, now it's time to send to the heat exchanger and stabilize it at that temp.

you missed my point. I was saying the thermostat should turn OFF the radiator-bypass, not turn ON the radiator. bypassing the radiator is ephemeral - 10 min at startup. Instead they have this giant flow-impediment where 99.8% of the time the water MUST go.

 

[Angrey]

you missed my point. I was saying the thermostat should turn OFF the radiator-bypass, not turn ON the radiator. bypassing the radiator is ephemeral - 10 min at startup. Instead they have this giant flow-impediment where 99.8% of the time the water MUST go.

I guess I am missing your point. The t-stat remains closed until it reaches set temp. So it keeps the coolant circulating in the motor and heater core until it reaches set point and pops the mechanism.

I'm not sure how else it could/would work. You don't want the coolant circulating to the radiator upon startup or while the motor is cold. The whole idea is to speed up the warm up process and get the coolant up to temp faster. You could run no t-stat at all, but then there's conditions where the coolant temps would remain low and never reach desired (190F) operating temp.

Hell, if you've ever lived in deep freeze America, there's times when you have to put cardboard in front of the radiator just to keep frigid air from cooling the motor cause the coolant can't climb hot enough to provide heat to the cabin.

I get your point (for hot/warm states) but the Tstat really comes into play much more than startup for a good portion of the country for a good portion of the year.

 

[andrewtac]

I guess I am missing your point. The t-stat remains closed until it reaches set temp. So it keeps the coolant circulating in the motor and heater core until it reaches set point and pops the mechanism.

I'm not sure how else it could/would work. You don't want the coolant circulating to the radiator upon startup or while the motor is cold. The whole idea is to speed up the warm up process and get the coolant up to temp faster. You could run no t-stat at all, but then there's conditions where the coolant temps would remain low and never reach desired (190F) operating temp.

Hell, if you've ever lived in deep freeze America, there's times when you have to put cardboard in front of the radiator just to keep frigid air from cooling the motor cause the coolant can't climb hot enough to provide heat to the cabin.

I get your point (for hot/warm states) but the Tstat really comes into play much more than startup for a good portion of the country for a good portion of the year.

His point is, why aren't they designed to fail open rather than close. Fail open doesn't hurt anything, fail close and your stuck. Not in general terms of operation, however to fail open would make them more complicated if they still work the same.

 

[Platinum_5.0]

I've also seen no real data to justify this cooling mod but I do believe that tuning plays a significant role. Where I'm from there has been 2 close friends of mine with boosted Gen 2's, one with twins and one with a Vortech. Both tuned by Lund, both stock motors running between 700-850whp and both popped #8. I'm tuned by PBD and ran my 17 Whipple car at 700-850WHP and 8000rpm for 3 years straight with no issue. Now this isn't a tuner comparison on who is better, I believe both are amazing tuners but there was one major difference between my tune and theirs and that's timing. When comparing logs, Lund had both their cars getting max timing right from the hit where PBD on my car would ramp it in. I can't help but assume that on a stock engine making 850whp and hitting it with all 21-22* of timing right from the hit, was the primary factor in them engines having #8 fail. It couldn't have been heat from lack of cooling. All our cars were built the exact same. 170 T-stat, performance pack cars so little bigger rad and I ran my car much harder, roll racing constantly from 3rd gear to the top of 5th and 8000rpm every shift. #8 plug always looked just the same as the rest. There were 2 other lund tuned cars who lost stock engines in my area as well but I didn't know them well enough to see the data.

 

[wazslow]

I've also seen no real data to justify this cooling mod but I do believe that tuning plays a significant role. Where I'm from there has been 2 close friends of mine with boosted Gen 2's, one with twins and one with a Vortech. Both tuned by Lund, both stock motors running between 700-850whp and both popped #8. I'm tuned by PBD and ran my 17 Whipple car at 700-850WHP and 8000rpm for 3 years straight with no issue. Now this isn't a tuner comparison on who is better, I believe both are amazing tuners but there was one major difference between my tune and theirs and that's timing. When comparing logs, Lund had both their cars getting max timing right from the hit where PBD on my car would ramp it in. I can't help but assume that on a stock engine making 850whp and hitting it with all 21-22* of timing right from the hit, was the primary factor in them engines having #8 fail. It couldn't have been heat from lack of cooling. All our cars were built the exact same. 170 T-stat, performance pack cars so little bigger rad and I ran my car much harder, roll racing constantly from 3rd gear to the top of 5th and 8000rpm every shift. #8 plug always looked just the same as the rest. There were 2 other lund tuned cars who lost stock engines in my area as well but I didn't know them well enough to see the data.

What fuel were all these cars running?

 

[Platinum_5.0]

What fuel were all these cars running?

Pump E85

 

[Angrey]

His point is, why aren't they designed to fail open rather than close. Fail open doesn't hurt anything, fail close and your stuck. Not in general terms of operation, however to fail open would make them more complicated if they still work the same.

Because the Tstat is there to ensure the motor runs at a minimal temp. If it were to fail the other way, it creates a possibility where the motor runs cold and also would take much longer to reach operating temp (if it was able to at all) depending on the outside temperature.

In a world where it never gets cold (i.e. South Florida) you could run without any Tstat and the end result would be essentially no different, it'd just take a little longer to come up to temp.

Your own body has similar Tstat. When you're cold, your body pools blood to your core (and limits it to your extremities), this is so things like your brain and vital organs can function properly even if it means getting frost bite and damaged digits and appendages. Similarly once your body says it's okay to circulate blood everywhere, if your temperature continues to climb, it signals to generate sweat (cooling) in crucial areas (your head where there's a significant amount of blood and your arm pits to drain down onto your core).

At the end of the day, it's simply the lesser of evils (whether it fails/defaults open or closed) and they've determined that it never opening is a lesser evil than it being permanently stuck open.

 

[SolarFlare]

I've also seen no real data to justify this cooling mod but I do believe that tuning plays a significant role. Where I'm from there has been 2 close friends of mine with boosted Gen 2's, one with twins and one with a Vortech. Both tuned by Lund, both stock motors running between 700-850whp and both popped #8. I'm tuned by PBD and ran my 17 Whipple car at 700-850WHP and 8000rpm for 3 years straight with no issue. Now this isn't a tuner comparison on who is better, I believe both are amazing tuners but there was one major difference between my tune and theirs and that's timing. When comparing logs, Lund had both their cars getting max timing right from the hit where PBD on my car would ramp it in. I can't help but assume that on a stock engine making 850whp and hitting it with all 21-22* of timing right from the hit, was the primary factor in them engines having #8 fail. It couldn't have been heat from lack of cooling. All our cars were built the exact same. 170 T-stat, performance pack cars so little bigger rad and I ran my car much harder, roll racing constantly from 3rd gear to the top of 5th and 8000rpm every shift. #8 plug always looked just the same as the rest. There were 2 other lund tuned cars who lost stock engines in my area as well but I didn't know them well enough to see the data.

The reason for the timing should be very obvious by just seeing the setups, surprising that you dont see it. And 21-22* is likely to have no real connection to the failure. Failure is more likely due to luck, lack of maintenance, bad E85, of excessive abuse.

 

[andrewtac]

At the end of the day, it's simply the lesser of evils (whether it fails/defaults open or closed) and they've determined that it never opening is a lesser evil than it being permanently stuck open.

I think we all understand how a tstat works, and why it works the way it works; it is a rather simple design.

I do not think that most people who drive cars would agree that getting stranded in a car that cannot cool is the lesser evil over the car doesn’t reach a heating cycle and they can make it home or to a repair station. I understand based on the design and how they work inhibits this failure mode.

 

[Angrey]

I think we all understand how a tstat works, and why it works the way it works; it is a rather simple design.

I do not think that most people who drive cars would agree that getting stranded in a car that cannot cool is the lesser evil over the car doesn’t reach a heating cycle and they can make it home or to a repair station. I understand based on the design and how they work inhibits this failure mode.

If it bothers you that much abd you're not afraid of open loop then just ditch the tstat. You'll have to sit for 10 minutes each time you want to warm up properly. Not a big deal in mass production passenger cars, but if you have high performance pistons it's just more time sitting and waiting for them to expand fully (or more damage with them bouncing around until they expand if you jump in and go)

 

[andrewtac]

If it bothers you that much abd you're not afraid of open loop then just ditch the tstat. You'll have to sit for 10 minutes each time you want to warm up properly. Not a big deal in mass production passenger cars, but if you have high performance pistons it's just more time sitting and waiting for them to expand fully (or more damage with them bouncing around until they expand if you jump in and go)

I am not going to pull my tstats I don't really care that much as I have newer vehicles now days and can afford a rental or tow (i guess i do enough to keep replying though) I was only stating that fail open would be a better failure mode; it allows you to get home. Sort of like run flat tires, or other limp modes. Car overheats and your stranded until it cools enough to move agian, worse you destroy the motor. Fail open, let it warm up for 10 minutes drive home or to the shop. I dont prefer failure modes that can result in catastrophic failure or getting stuck. I understand how tstats work, again one of the most simple things on a car that hasn't probably changed design in decades; they probably won't change the design for a better failure mode as the frequency of failure is to low and you just have pull over.

 

[K4fxd]

These fail open

https://motorad.com/products/fail-safe-thermostats/

 

[Angrey]

I am not going to pull my tstats I don't really care that much as I have newer vehicles now days and can afford a rental or tow (i guess i do enough to keep replying though) I was only stating that fail open would be a better failure mode; it allows you to get home. Sort of like run flat tires, or other limp modes. Car overheats and your stranded until it cools enough to move agian, worse you destroy the motor. Fail open, let it warm up for 10 minutes drive home or to the shop. I dont prefer failure modes that can result in catastrophic failure or getting stuck. I understand how tstats work, again one of the most simple things on a car that hasn't probably changed design in decades; they probably won't change the design for a better failure mode as the frequency of failure is to low and you just have pull over.

You're describing a very obscure and rare event, compared to a certain and every day detractor of the vehicle not warming quickly. It's all in your risk assessment and if you'd rather the former, just yank the T-stat.

I'm sure that it could be engineered to default open and close under conditional input, but that would add cost and complexity to a system that they've determined to be low risk for what you're describing. It's been a very long time since I've had a Tstat hang up or even heard of guys having it foul up.

 

[Angrey]

These fail open

https://motorad.com/products/fail-safe-thermostats/

It's a bit gimmicky and a workaround. It's like a temp filament (similar to a filament in a fire sprinkler head). It doesn't technically fail default open, if the T stat fails, then the coolant temp will rise to the point that it pops the "piston" and pushes it open. So I guess it's a roundabout way of failing open.

I guess it can't hurt.

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