Fuel System Mods for E85

[Mikepol2]

I messaged Wengerd saying that it looks like returnless systems have a lot of advantages over the Fore / Arcane return systems he recommended to me, and did he have any experience tuning returnless, no response yet.

Also messaged both DW and Fore asking for recommendations for a setup in case Wengerd will only tune for return systems but no response yet there either.

Even if I don't track it the benefits of E85 seem like it's worth pursuing. Loved it when I was NA. Hard to imagine there are no 8 psi ESS Gen 3's successfully running returnless flex fuel.

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[mepawn]

I messaged Wengerd saying that it looks like returnless systems have a lot of advantages over the Fore / Arcane return systems he recommended to me, and did he have any experience tuning returnless, no response yet.

Also messaged both DW and Fore asking for recommendations for a setup in case Wengerd will only tune for return systems but no response yet there either.

Even if I don't track it the benefits of E85 seem like it's worth pursuing. Loved it when I was NA. Hard to imagine there are no 8 psi ESS Gen 3's successfully running returnless flex fuel.

Yeah honestly at that point i think it comes down to the tuner in this regard. After talking on this thread it seems there are a bunch of variables you have to dig into to tune for it properly that no company puts the time in to figure out. Its much easier to just tell people to get a return style as you know for sure youre getting more than enough fuel, at least you should, and only have to tune injector data, MAF data, and monitor the STFTs.

Regardless both systems will work and are proven to work.

Looking at top fuel dragsters, they use a return style fuel system as they are pushing the absolute limits of engine capabilities.

 

[engineermike]

@Mikepol2 you do have options for the fuel system but constrained by the tuner. There are a couple of good returnless options available now, with more on the way I believe.

Dw400/bap will support 8-900 rwhp on e85 depending on injector and tuning.

Dw810 will support a more but honestly I don’t think this solution is quite ready for mass consumption due to controller heat issues. There is a workaround that @SheepDog is doing and it works well for him, though.

KPM systems are returnless and will support a lot of power. Their achillles heel is the lack of a real fuel filter if you stick with the stock line. They supposedly have something in the works.

I’m working on one more option that could be an excellent low cost, high capacity system. Should have more info in a week or two.

 

[Mikepol2]

I’m working on one more option that could be an excellent low cost, high capacity system. Should have more info in a week or two.

Thank you, will be watching, good luck!

 

[Pistol_91]

I messaged Wengerd saying that it looks like returnless systems have a lot of advantages over the Fore / Arcane return systems he recommended to me, and did he have any experience tuning returnless, no response yet.

Also messaged both DW and Fore asking for recommendations for a setup in case Wengerd will only tune for return systems but no response yet there either.

Even if I don't track it the benefits of E85 seem like it's worth pursuing. Loved it when I was NA. Hard to imagine there are no 8 psi ESS Gen 3's successfully running returnless flex fuel.

I said it a few posts in. I run an ess g3x, 120mm, dw400, bap, ID1050, radium fuel rails on e85. Zero pressure issues. Took a bit of fuel pump/voltage tuning and help from mike to do so to get it to not have insufficient fueling. It's been this way for months now. Raced it a few times as well. She's holding good so far. I've had no issues. May go with a smaller pulley here sooner or later or further see where fuel pressure starts to drop and a 2nd pump is needed.

 

[SnowFox]

This thread is interesting.

So Im at a point where I'm fine with the power I have, running pump 93 on a G2 120mm. GT500 injectors and a nap on stock pump

I'd love some of the benefits of E85, cooler, knock protection ect. I don't care about making a large HP jump.

I can change rails easy enough that's no biggy. But I have very little interest in a completely new fuel system.

Would be nice to be tuned for E85 on what I have without expectation of wanting to chase/build more power.

 

[robvas]

This thread is interesting.

So Im at a point where I'm fine with the power I have, running pump 93 on a G2 120mm. GT500 injectors and a nap on stock pump

I'd love some of the benefits of E85, cooler, knock protection ect. I don't care about making a large HP jump.

I can change rails easy enough that's no biggy. But I have very little interest in a completely new fuel system.

Would be nice to be tuned for E85 on what I have without expectation of wanting to chase/build more power.

This is also where I am - would like the cooling/octane of ethanol but don't want to try to add 75lb-ft down low. Would not mind adding a little power for the last 2,000 rpm

Seems like you could just stick with the same timing for the most part and not risk much.

But is it worth $2k for a fuel system and $500-1000 for a re-tune?

 

[cbrtrx]

You guys just need to find a tuner that is willing to tune a mild setup like that. Just for the knock protection alone E85 is much better then 93. A 12 to 1 engine with boost isn't the best recipe for longevity on pump gasoline.

I try not to tune any boosted gen 3 cars on 93 if I don't have to, I push for E40 at a minimum.

 

[Mikepol2]

Reached out to Juggernaut who mentioned that in addition to injectors, a return fuel system and rails for E85, there is even MORE required for flex fuel… plug and play CANBUS kit with AVID and PCMTEC custom operating system. This is escalating quickly…

I really am starting to miss my $600 Livernois NA flex tune.

 

[SnowFox]

You guys just need to find a tuner that is willing to tune a mild setup like that. Just for the knock protection alone E85 is much better then 93. A 12 to 1 engine with boost isn't the best recipe for longevity on pump gasoline.

I try not to tune any boosted gen 3 cars on 93 if I don't have to, I push for E40 at a minimum.

You make a good point. I suppose if not tuning for more power, and just looking for some added protection. E85 probably wouldn't be totally necessary. The convenience factor (for my area) wouldnt be so great.

In an ideal tune (for me) I'd be able to just run E85 from its 54%-83% content without trying to gain or lose power. To be totally honest I'm not sure thats even possible. Could be. But I don't know

 

[SheepDog]

In an ideal tune (for me) I'd be able to just run E85 from its 54%-83% content without trying to gain or lose power. To be totally honest I'm not sure thats even possible. Could be. But I don't know

It certainly is possible. The expense for running E85 is all in the cost of the necessary components. The additional power that comes from E85, is pretty much all in the ignition timing. (the cooling effect does allow for a denser air/fuel charge, even without advancing the timing to take full advantage of the ethanol)

By the time you go through all of the trouble installing a new fuel system, and paying for an E85 tune, why would you want to kneecap the situation just to "not" make any more power?

 

[engineermike]

Reached out to Juggernaut who mentioned that in addition to injectors, a return fuel system and rails for E85, there is even MORE required for flex fuel… plug and play CANBUS kit with AVID and PCMTEC custom operating system. This is escalating quickly…

I really am starting to miss my $600 Livernois NA flex tune.

This is the part that's frustrating to me....it is nice but you don't need any of that stuff to make a flex strategy work. The F150 5.0 has flex fueling from the factory. If it didn't work *very* well, then Ford wouldn't have supplied it that way year after year. Part of the problem here is that a combination of the Gen2 OS not being capable of changing spark timing as a function of learned ethanol, and Gen3 fuel line volumes defaulted to 0 lb and not editable in HPT have sent commercial tuners down the path of "it's not possible" or "not a good idea with boost". HPT also neglected to define many other flex fuel parameters, many of which affect cold starting.

The Gen3 can modulate a ton of things as a function of learned ethanol. For instance, it can vary the maximum engine load...like if it learns 10% then it can limit boost to 8 or 10 psi, but if it learns 70% it can let it go to 16 or 18 or whatever you want. It can modulate timing, of course, but also timing as a function of ethanol combined with charge temp if you like. It can even modulate GDI pressure and lambda, min lambda, torque, inferred EGT/COT trigger points, knock retard amount, GDI blend, GDI SOI, the list goes on and on. It can even change the blending curve; for instance cold fueling and spark timing can vary drastically or subtly as a function of ethanol %, and use separate blend curves. It really is amazing what Ford built into the Gen3 strategy.

I set mine up to only "switch" on the extra timing on at around 55% learned. So if it learns just 50%, I don't get the timing. You can make it ramp in between 40 and 80%, or really whatever you want.

As far as pitfalls go, most of what people are scared of is unfounded.
- If you switch from gasoline to E85 and floor it before it learns, the STFT will catch it and prevent lean running. We "accidentally" tested this.
- The LTFT are used to determine diagnostics like air leaks and bad O2 sensors. The LTFT are frozen during the learning phase and will only update once the learned ethanol % has "matured". In other words, something like an air leak will only affect LTFT when the PCM is not in ethanol learning mode. Therefore, diagnostics of an air leak or bad O2 sensor is done by LFTF out of range, which will only happen outside of the learning period. This means that unless you develop an air leak or fail an O2 sensor within the first 10 minutes after a refuel, the diagnostics still work. I think it was @K4fxd that inadvertently tested this.
- The only "vulnerable" time is when switching from E85 to gasoline, if you were to floor it right when you exit the gas station and the gasoline reaches the engine when you're still running high timing at WOT. That said, it's been my experience that a) the knock sensors will at least partially protect you in this situation, b) unless you run it *out* of fuel, the tank typically will be somewhere around E30-E40 and will still have pretty good knock suppression, c) the fuel change is more gradual than you'd think and doesn't all hit at once thus giving it a chance to learn, and d) just don't do *that* if you're running a flex tune.

That said, it is totally possible to run a full-on flex tune but have the timing change little or none as a function of ethanol. You'd be leaving up to 100 hp on the table, though, which would be hard for me to swallow.

 

[Mikepol2]

This is the part that's frustrating to me....it is nice but you don't need any of that stuff to make a flex strategy work. The F150 5.0 has flex fueling from the factory. If it didn't work *very* well, then Ford wouldn't have supplied it that way year after year. Part of the problem here is that a combination of the Gen2 OS not being capable of changing spark timing as a function of learned ethanol, and Gen3 fuel line volumes defaulted to 0 lb and not editable in HPT have sent commercial tuners down the path of "it's not possible" or "not a good idea with boost". HPT also neglected to define many other flex fuel parameters, many of which affect cold starting.

The Gen3 can modulate a ton of things as a function of learned ethanol. For instance, it can vary the maximum engine load...like if it learns 10% then it can limit boost to 8 or 10 psi, but if it learns 70% it can let it go to 16 or 18 or whatever you want. It can modulate timing, of course, but also timing as a function of ethanol combined with charge temp if you like. It can even modulate GDI pressure and lambda, min lambda, torque, inferred EGT/COT trigger points, knock retard amount, GDI blend, GDI SOI, the list goes on and on. It can even change the blending curve; for instance cold fueling and spark timing can vary drastically or subtly as a function of ethanol %, and use separate blend curves. It really is amazing what Ford built into the Gen3 strategy.

I set mine up to only "switch" on the extra timing on at around 55% learned. So if it learns just 50%, I don't get the timing. You can make it ramp in between 40 and 80%, or really whatever you want.

As far as pitfalls go, most of what people are scared of is unfounded.
- If you switch from gasoline to E85 and floor it before it learns, the STFT will catch it and prevent lean running. We "accidentally" tested this.
- The LTFT are used to determine diagnostics like air leaks and bad O2 sensors. The LTFT are frozen during the learning phase and will only update once the learned ethanol % has "matured". In other words, something like an air leak will only affect LTFT when the PCM is not in ethanol learning mode. Therefore, diagnostics of an air leak or bad O2 sensor is done by LFTF out of range, which will only happen outside of the learning period. This means that unless you develop an air leak or fail an O2 sensor within the first 10 minutes after a refuel, the diagnostics still work. I think it was @K4fxd that inadvertently tested this.
- The only "vulnerable" time is when switching from E85 to gasoline, if you were to floor it right when you exit the gas station and the gasoline reaches the engine when you're still running high timing at WOT. That said, it's been my experience that a) the knock sensors will at least partially protect you in this situation, b) unless you run it *out* of fuel, the tank typically will be somewhere around E30-E40 and will still have pretty good knock suppression, c) the fuel change is more gradual than you'd think and doesn't all hit at once thus giving it a chance to learn, and d) just don't do *that* if you're running a flex tune.

That said, it is totally possible to run a full-on flex tune but have the timing change little or none as a function of ethanol. You'd be leaving up to 100 hp on the table, though, which would be hard for me to swallow.

So if my available fuel is advertised at E51-83, would tuners at least be able to give me like an E50 tune if I did the injectors / rails / return system they want?

 

[engineermike]

So if my available fuel is advertised at E51-83, would tuners at least be able to give me like an E50 tune if I did the injectors / rails / return system they want?

I really have no reason to dig into what commercial tuners will and won’t offer. It just frustrates me that they cut customers out of functionality that ford built into the pcm.

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking though. If they give you an e50 tune and you get a tank of e83 then your trims will be about 15% higher than they should be and cold starting will be poor.

 

[Mikepol2]

I really have no reason to dig into what commercial tuners will and won’t offer. It just frustrates me that they cut customers out of functionality that ford built into the pcm.

I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking though. If they give you an e50 tune and you get a tank of e83 then your trims will be about 15% higher than they should be and cold starting will be poor.

OK, I know nothing about all this stuff and was under the impression that you could tune for something lower and if you got more, it ran just fine, it was just a bonus. Looks like I will be a 93 guy for life!

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