Do you regret choosing your power adder?

[engineermike]

I did a 50-120 mph pull, as far as anything street related, thats 90% of any of our drives. Would you like me to log 10 consecutive pulls after each other? I didnt think thats what were looking at

I agree! But you said "...the water cooled system will hide the heat issue for long enough to show your one pull, and possibly after 10 pulls your setup will finally show what actually goes on heat wise inside the blower". So you're saying that 90% of the time, the water/air intercooler is better. This makes sense due to the greater thermal capacitance of the system.

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[engineermike]

Im running the max i can for pump gas 93, ive said this many times that im able to get these temps with my setups and yall said its not possible unless im making subpar boost

Couple things....

1. What do you mean the max you can for pump gas 93? You're running the 8 psi pulley. I know it's subjective, but most boosted coyote owners would say 8 psi is "subpar boost". FYI I ran 16 psi on 93 for a good while on my whipple setup. I even dyno'd with lower boost/higher timing to find the optimum balance and every time I added boost it made more power.
2. You made some pretty outlandish claims in post 9, where this all started, including " i have never seen past 15 degrees above ambient, and were talking about a pull from 40mph to 170mph." But your data logs have shown 16 deg rise from 50 to 120 in a single gear averaging 6 psi boost. That's exaggerated by a factor of roughly 4.

 

[engineermike]

I have countless testemonies of whipple/vmp owners having heat issues, and countless testemonies of centri owners specifically buying centri setups and never complaining about heat issues. That would be evidence enough for me, but you want data which i dont have and dont have the time nor the software skill to get ya

Word of mouth beats actual data. Got it.

 

[Timbuck]

Na doesnt have much of any cooling for ait, it just sits nicely at what it can pull into the intake

boost is the best!

That was my point On my NA temps being higher than your boosted temps. Pretty easy to get 110 deg C cylinder head temps and over 50 deg c inlet in summer. I was with a buddy a week ago though the mountains lots of 2nd , 3rd driving we both have 2017 gt’s … his manual , mine 6r80 both very similar in temps. At one stage his got to 120 deg c head temp mine was 115 following him.

that’s what worries me when I go boost. keeping Things temp happy.

 

[Timbuck]

Most interchiller setups are for a water intercooled setup. I guess you could interchill the motor coolant, but not sure that would be of much help outside of circuit racing.

And not all boost is "equal" above a certain amount. The choice of power adder below say 900 or so is pretty much pick your poison. But above that level, you'd better be able to employ sophisticated tuning for anything other than turbo (which has the biggest aftermarket support for mechanical boost controllers).

The fuel type gets a second impact/consideration. Even at lower boost levels, the choice of 93 makes some power adders more attractive than others. With E85, that tends to be reduced or go away completely.

There's a reason that most "big" builds are turbos. Aside from the efficiency, once you get to ridiculous levels of torque, you'd better have a way to feather it in by gear and a simple wastegate controller is a lot cheaper than sophisticated stand alone or crazy customized tuning (or stand alone).

im pretty much sold on a single turbo set up ( custom build) with water to air. where I live and our condition's for 9 months a year leans me in that direction. Also I just love turbo’s , and totally agree on the controllability with boost ramp etc.

im lucky enough now I’ve been in multiple boosted types of coyotes. (1)2017 custom top mount 6r80 twin turbo (2)2018 Whipple manual (3) 2019 ESS g3 10 speed. (4) 2019 roush 10 speed. Listed my most favourite to least favourite. all 750hp Cars give or take a little.

now I’ve been able to go in all of them it cemented my goal to go turbo. As it just felt and sounded best to me.
There is Nothing really on the market that fits ozzy cars well or how I would like it. so I’ll end up building my own set up. Utilising some headers etc that are already available.

 

[wingnutt]

I did a 50-120 mph pull, as far as anything street related, thats 90% of any of our drives. Would you like me to log 10 consecutive pulls after each other? I didnt think thats what were looking at

no dog in this fight (as I am a turbo guy all day, every day) but isn’t that EXACTLY what you were arguing against, which kinda started this whole shin-dig?

…askin for a friend

 

[Angrey]

im pretty much sold on a single turbo set up ( custom build) with water to air. where I live and our condition's for 9 months a year leans me in that direction. Also I just love turbo’s , and totally agree on the controllability with boost ramp etc.

im lucky enough now I’ve been in multiple boosted types of coyotes. (1)2017 custom top mount 6r80 twin turbo (2)2018 Whipple manual (3) 2019 ESS g3 10 speed. (4) 2019 roush 10 speed. Listed my most favourite to least favourite. all 750hp Cars give or take a little.

now I’ve been able to go in all of them it cemented my goal to go turbo. As it just felt and sounded best to me.
There is Nothing really on the market that fits ozzy cars well or how I would like it. so I’ll end up building my own set up. Utilising some headers etc that are already available.

There's a reason everyone migrated to twin setups. A big single is a "race only" type application because once you put the car into a narrow upper rpm range, you're not as concerned about boost lag.

I suppose having a 10 speed now makes a big single more attractive for street use, but unless you're going to deal with big turbo lag or beat your motor to death with some sorta anti-lag, a big single makes steam, but takes the upper half of the tachometer to do so.

Maybe that's attractive to some, having the car behave very sluggish and pedestrian at the lower half of the rpm range and then like a maniac up top.

For a full on drag car, a big single is simpler and works. For a daily, I think I would prefer a smaller pair of twins for immediate response.

 

[Wolfys11]

I agree! But you said "...the water cooled system will hide the heat issue for long enough to show your one pull, and possibly after 10 pulls your setup will finally show what actually goes on heat wise inside the blower". So you're saying that 90% of the time, the water/air intercooler is better. This makes sense due to the greater thermal capacitance of the system.

Is it better? Because once you heat up, you stay heated for a long time. I dont, i cruise on the highway for 10 seconds and am back to normal temps

 

[Wolfys11]

Couple things....

1. What do you mean the max you can for pump gas 93? You're running the 8 psi pulley. I know it's subjective, but most boosted coyote owners would say 8 psi is "subpar boost". FYI I ran 16 psi on 93 for a good while on my whipple setup. I even dyno'd with lower boost/higher timing to find the optimum balance and every time I added boost it made more power.
2. You made some pretty outlandish claims in post 9, where this all started, including " i have never seen past 15 degrees above ambient, and were talking about a pull from 40mph to 170mph." But your data logs have shown 16 deg rise from 50 to 120 in a single gear averaging 6 psi boost. That's exaggerated by a factor of roughly 4.

This was in summer heat, my pulls to 170 were at night at almost 45 degree weather, which drastically helps cooling

i am running what my tuner and others say is the smallest pully to be ran for gen 3 on pump gas, which you say comes to 8 psi, i usually see up to 10-11

if you ran 16 psi, great for you, but im yet to hear anyone be “safe” on a 115 pully gen 3 coyote on ess, so im on 120 for now

i will also add in anything e85 will run tons cooler and be happier with boost so of course that runs its own course with this discussion

 

[Wolfys11]

Word of mouth beats actual data. Got it.

If 1000 people say their whipple runs hot, and 1000 people say their ess/procharger doesnt ever really have any issues with heat, you discount that for your one magical whipple dataset that somehow runs high boost with near 10 or less deg temp change? Its more likely your data has something to it than the whole world being set on the fact that pd makes the power but drawbacks with heat issues

 

[Wolfys11]

no dog in this fight (as I am a turbo guy all day, every day) but isn’t that EXACTLY what you were arguing against, which kinda started this whole shin-dig?

…askin for a friend

I argued what everyone has ever said, a centri beats pd in heat, a pd beats a centri for low end and keeping top end power. If the pd system was so amazing today, where a centri only exists because its a couple thousand dollars cheaper and 50lbs less, (ess is even lighter but il reference procharger as a more popular option before ess came to coyotes) i dont believe centri would be even close to as popular

 

[Timbuck]

There's a reason everyone migrated to twin setups. A big single is a "race only" type application because once you put the car into a narrow upper rpm range, you're not as concerned about boost lag.

I suppose having a 10 speed now makes a big single more attractive for street use, but unless you're going to deal with big turbo lag or beat your motor to death with some sorta anti-lag, a big single makes steam, but takes the upper half of the tachometer to do so.

Maybe that's attractive to some, having the car behave very sluggish and pedestrian at the lower half of the rpm range and then like a maniac up top.

For a full on drag car, a big single is simpler and works. For a daily, I think I would prefer a smaller pair of twins for immediate response.

Athough I tend to agree , I feel with modern turbo’s and the right set up on a single “ so called lag can be reduced a lot so to speak “ For the 850 or so wheel I’m after , if I could create a boost curve in between a whipple and a ESS g3 I’d be very happy. Pulsar G42-1200 or the bigger pulsar 77/82 would work quite well , and have enough exaust flow to keep valve float away Let’s say under 7500rpm.

after going in a 10 speed ESS g3 car I did feel very underwhelmed to be honest. Part throttle torque out of a corner or up hill just wasn’t there at all untill 5k+ and I think it was getting around 4 or 5 psi around then. Awesome at full noise no question , I just felt like they are good at that one rev range.
I feel at least turbo’s are load driven , so even coming out of a corner at 3k or below they still produce psi and lite up and away you go And by 5K you already have say 10psi. I’ve been in a few well set up single turbo LS cars and ozzy barra’s ( 4L straight 6) some set up have next to no lag at all with modern turbo’s. And yes also laggy as hell S480 LS 5.3

I love hellion kit , but price of kit + import duty etc it become crazy expensive.
And I’m not convinced it‘s the best option for me. Country roads , dirt roads etc to get to where the driving is fun. Heck even my buddies 200 acre farm has a mile long driveway And creek crossing. more reasons I’ll never lower my mustang. For some reason air filters underneath the car doesn’t bode well with me either.

Either a single kit or top mount twins would be a better option for my personal needs rather Than bottom mounts.
‘but it’s all up for procrastination at this point haha.

 

[Zrussian13]

I did a 50-120 mph pull, as far as anything street related, thats 90% of any of our drives. Would you like me to log 10 consecutive pulls after each other? I didnt think thats what were looking at

No just 1 full 1320 pull. Any power adder can handle a half pull with out issue so if thats the metric we want to use ever argument above is moot. I didn't log mine last night but pulled from 0-120 on my way home from a beer run. Iats were 8° Above ambient at the end of the pull. No clue if they started at ambient or higher but point is a short pull using the stock iat location doesn't provide much usable data. 98° outside and iat barely hit 106°.

 

[Zrussian13]

Athough I tend to agree , I feel with modern turbo’s and the right set up on a single “ so called lag can be reduced a lot so to speak “ For the 850 or so wheel I’m after , if I could create a boost curve in between a whipple and a ESS g3 I’d be very happy. Pulsar G42-1200 or the bigger pulsar 77/82 would work quite well , and have enough exaust flow to keep valve float away Let’s say under 7500rpm.

after going in a 10 speed ESS g3 car I did feel very underwhelmed to be honest. Part throttle torque out of a corner or up hill just wasn’t there at all untill 5k+ and I think it was getting around 4 or 5 psi around then. Awesome at full noise no question , I just felt like they are good at that one rev range.
I feel at least turbo’s are load driven , so even coming out of a corner at 3k or below they still produce psi and lite up and away you go And by 5K you already have say 10psi. I’ve been in a few well set up single turbo LS cars and ozzy barra’s ( 4L straight 6) some set up have next to no lag at all with modern turbo’s. And yes also laggy as hell S480 LS 5.3

I love hellion kit , but price of kit + import duty etc it become crazy expensive.
And I’m not convinced it‘s the best option for me. Country roads , dirt roads etc to get to where the driving is fun. Heck even my buddies 200 acre farm has a mile long driveway And creek crossing. more reasons I’ll never lower my mustang. For some reason air filters underneath the car doesn’t bode well with me either.

Either a single kit or top mount twins would be a better option for my personal needs rather Than bottom mounts.
‘but it’s all up for procrastination at this point haha.

Love the set up! My low mounts handle durt roads and construction site out here no problem. I an not lowered though and don't plan on it.

 

[engineermike]

Is it better? Because once you heat up, you stay heated for a long time. I dont, i cruise on the highway for 10 seconds and am back to normal temps

You're the one that said we aren't talking about doing 10 pulls back to back. I was just agreeing. I've logged 3 and saw minimal temp rise, but never 10.

i am running what my tuner and others say is the smallest pully to be ran for gen 3 on pump gas, which you say comes to 8 psi, i usually see up to 10-11

if you ran 16 psi, great for you, but im yet to hear anyone be “safe” on a 115 pully gen 3 coyote on ess, so im on 120 for now

It all depends on how the tune is set up. You can run a lot of boost on pump gas as long as the timing is well controlled. Most tuners take the lazy way out and just let it ride a hard limit regardless of load, mapped point, lambda, and even charge temp. If you account for all those plus humidity, you can run a lot more than 8 or 10 psi safely. I'd seen as much as 19 deg timing even at 14 psi boost and 21 deg at 11 psi with zero knock when the conditions were right.

If 1000 people say their whipple runs hot, and 1000 people say their ess/procharger doesnt ever really have any issues with heat, you discount that for your one magical whipple dataset that somehow runs high boost with near 10 or less deg temp change? Its more likely your data has something to it than the whole world being set on the fact that pd makes the power but drawbacks with heat issues

Well under 5 deg rise on these short pulls we're talking about. And I have plenty of datasets from plenty of cars. It simply blows my mind how highly you regard the word-of-mouth qualitative anecdotes that supports your view, while attempting to pick apart detailed data that doesn't. Confirmation bias it is. I was quite surprised by my data as well because of all I had heard and assumed, which is why I went to the lengths I did to test the sensor and transfer function. You can also imagine I was surprised when I first saw data from a centrif setup that showed a rapid temp rise, again because it went against all that is said.

But alas, you have several folks participating in this thread who have owned or even tuned all varieties and they're telling you the same thing I am. When you get actual data and review a couple thousand logs, you start to see patterns.

Just for fun at higher boost levels, and these are cars I've tuned:

For transparency, this is very over-spun VMP Odin, running literally off the compressor map at around 23 psi boost and 60% efficiency, with the single-pass non-counter-flow intercooler (better than Roush but not as good as Whipple). This is what happens when you push a PD too far. Temp rise during the pull was about 23 deg.

This is a Hellion running 21-22 psi boost, 25 deg rise during the pull:

And this is a Whipple 3.8, dual-pass counter-flow intercooler, also around 22 psi boost. Temp rise was about 6 deg.

The ambient temp was the coldest for the Hellion (winter dyno), warmer for the VMP (spring), and hottest for the Whipple 3.8 (early summer).

I argued what everyone has ever said, a centri beats pd in heat, a pd beats a centri for low end and keeping top end power. If the pd system was so amazing today, where a centri only exists because its a couple thousand dollars cheaper and 50lbs less, (ess is even lighter but il reference procharger as a more popular option before ess came to coyotes) i dont believe centri would be even close to as popular

Lots of people stuck in the old mind-set of yesteryear. I see it all the time. And I don't discount the centrif. It has its advantages...just not the ones you think.

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