Cracked Cylinders

[AcceptableNebula]

There is no such thing as lemon law on an 8 year old car anywhere.

Massachusetts has an extensive Lemon Law. Any vehicle over $700 and under 125k miles has to have issues declared at the time of sale. Basically you can’t sell something that won’t pass inspection. If you do the buyer has recourse. Dealers have to do a 90/60/30 day warranty with 3750/2500/1250 miles respectively. Dealers cannot sell a car As Is.

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[VMS Racing]

I probably should not comment on this as a vendor, but I cannot stay quiet on this. A PO300 code is just a random or multiple cylinder misfire. Almost every single engine I have ever disassembled or seen disassembled had similar scratches on the cylinder walls, it is very common. If you have any thoughts on your mind that this is an issue you do a compression test and a cylinder leak down test. If those came out under spec then you would need to do something about it. The only way that scratches on the cylinder would cause a cylinder misfire would be that they were so bad that you had oil going past the piston rings and fouling the plugs, or that you would have very low compression and the cylinder would not fire or fire erratically. There is definitely not enough there that we can see from those photos for that to happen.

The fact that this tech told you that your cylinder walls were cracked from some minor scratches on the cylinder walls and that you needed a new engine immediately raises a HUGE red flag. The first question here would be why are they putting a bore scope down your cylinder walls, what induced them to start down that rabbit hole. The ONLY reason that I can see where you would start putting borescopes down cylinder bores is if you have done a compression test and found out you have a cylinder with low compression and want to see if you can see what the issue is, if you did a cylinder leak down test and you have excessive blowby on the cylinder, you pull out a plug that is fouled with oil, or that you have coolant in the oil and suspect that it is a cracked cylinder (after you exhausted every other possibility), and even then if you have low compression on a cylinder, excessive leak down, or a plug that when replaced with a new one immediately gets fouled with oil, that engine will need to come out anyways so why even waste your time.

Your car probably has a bad coil, a bad injector, some wiring issue, a vacuum leak, a bad fuel pump, a clogged fuel filter, could be as simple as water in the fuel from a recent gas fill up, or something or the sort. The issue with a PO300 code is that they can be very hard to diagnose. If they do not find the real cause of a PO300 code I would take it somewhere else. Maybe see if you have a mechanic in your area that deals in high performance Fords and really knows his way around them. At best whoever is working on that car seems like a new tech and he has no idea what the issue is and is just looking to see what sticks to the wall, and at worst the dealer is just trying to pull a fast one for some major profit.

 

[GL95]

Massachusetts has an extensive Lemon Law. Any vehicle over $700 and under 125k miles has to have issues declared at the time of sale. Basically you can’t sell something that won’t pass inspection. If you do the buyer has recourse. Dealers have to do a 90/60/30 day warranty with 3750/2500/1250 miles respectively. Dealers cannot sell a car As Is.

what part of Massachusetts is in Pennsylvania??

 

[robvas]

what part of Massachusetts is in Pennsylvania??

You never know. Lebanon is in Pennsylvania.

 

[gilbenja]

I probably should not comment on this as a vendor, but I cannot stay quiet on this. A PO300 code is just a random or multiple cylinder misfire. Almost every single engine I have ever disassembled or seen disassembled had similar scratches on the cylinder walls, it is very common. If you have any thoughts on your mind that this is an issue you do a compression test and a cylinder leak down test. If those came out under spec then you would need to do something about it. The only way that scratches on the cylinder would cause a cylinder misfire would be that they were so bad that you had oil going past the piston rings and fouling the plugs, or that you would have very low compression and the cylinder would not fire or fire erratically. There is definitely not enough there that we can see from those photos for that to happen.

The fact that this tech told you that your cylinder walls were cracked from some minor scratches on the cylinder walls and that you needed a new engine immediately raises a HUGE red flag. The first question here would be why are they putting a bore scope down your cylinder walls, what induced them to start down that rabbit hole. The ONLY reason that I can see where you would start putting borescopes down cylinder bores is if you have done a compression test and found out you have a cylinder with low compression and want to see if you can see what the issue is, if you did a cylinder leak down test and you have excessive blowby on the cylinder, you pull out a plug that is fouled with oil, or that you have coolant in the oil and suspect that it is a cracked cylinder (after you exhausted every other possibility), and even then if you have low compression on a cylinder, excessive leak down, or a plug that when replaced with a new one immediately gets fouled with oil, that engine will need to come out anyways so why even waste your time.

Your car probably has a bad coil, a bad injector, some wiring issue, a vacuum leak, a bad fuel pump, a clogged fuel filter, could be as simple as water in the fuel from a recent gas fill up, or something or the sort. The issue with a PO300 code is that they can be very hard to diagnose. If they do not find the real cause of a PO300 code I would take it somewhere else. Maybe see if you have a mechanic in your area that deals in high performance Fords and really knows his way around them. At best whoever is working on that car seems like a new tech and he has no idea what the issue is and is just looking to see what sticks to the wall, and at worst the dealer is just trying to pull a fast one for some major profit.

Hi VMS - Thank you for your response and information here. Would you suggest I wait for an actual written statement from Ford here? or just take the car asap to another mechanic?

Also, would you recommend I not drive the car? or would it be ok to drive for <10 miles to a new mechanic?

 

[AcceptableNebula]

what part of Massachusetts is in Pennsylvania??

GL95 said:
There is no such thing as lemon law on an 8 year old car anywhere.

You said anywhere…

 

[sk47]

The fact that this tech told you that your cylinder walls were cracked from some minor scratches on the cylinder walls and that you needed a new engine immediately raises a HUGE red flag.

Also, would you recommend I not drive the car? or would it be ok to drive for <10 miles to a new mechanic?

Hello; I have to agree about the red flag. I figured, perhaps incorrectly, that you are not savvy about engines from your initial post. Pretty sure a shop would notice such as well. One reason i asked some of my questions.

Hello; A real possibility is any damage that may have occurred is already done so a short drive likely will not do more. Put another way. if the current shop comes back with you need a new engine for a reason not yet mentioned the damage is already done.
Based on what is posted your engine is already trash or the internal mechanical condition is acceptable. Either way you have little to lose with a short drive. if the condition is truly already bad, then continued driving will add to the problem but overall will not much matter.
If the slight scoring in the cylinders is all there is then driving more is likely not fatal. I have run scored cylinders for some time. The scratches/scoring likely will allow more blow by which should show up as tail pipe smoke and using oil. Depending on how much scoring will determine how much blowby.

Again I ask if the oil was collected and examined or was the oil filter cut open. Something caused the shop to use a bore scope in the spark plug hole.
I understand pulling the plugs with a misfire. But not the use of a bore scope without some other clue. That said a mechanic is not going to teach you about engines.

I like the idea of a compression & leak down test as mentioned. Maybe the shop already did these????

You are down to either trusting the shop or getting a second opinion. Likely you already have a nice bill for the work already done. Thing is we on this thread cannot give you much of an answer from a distance.

 

[GL95]

GL95 said:
There is no such thing as lemon law on an 8 year old car anywhere.

You said anywhere…

And Massachusetts doesn't require it anyway, an 8 year old car is considered equivalent to >125k under their lemon law. So either way it still doesn't apply

 

[Mach VII]

And Massachusetts doesn't require it anyway, an 8 year old car is considered equivalent to >125k under their lemon law. So either way it still doesn't apply

There is no time stipulation in the lemon law in MA - https://www.mass.gov/guides/guide-to-used-vehicle-warranty-law

If this car had been purchased in MA it most definitely would be covered for repair in this instance.

 

[GL95]

There is no time stipulation in the lemon law in MA - https://www.mass.gov/guides/guide-to-used-vehicle-warranty-law

If this car had been purchased in MA it most definitely would be covered for repair in this instance.

Irrelevant since this isn't in Massachusetts, but from your own link:

• Cars older than 8 years old are assumed to have over 125,000 miles

 

[AcceptableNebula]

Irrelevant since this isn't in Massachusetts, but from your own link:

• Cars older than 8 years old are assumed to have over 125,000 miles

Unfortunately your AI is lying to you because that’s not found in the link. Mileage is never assumed by Massachusetts unless the actual mileage is unknown. Even then, it would be assumed to be 124,999 and require a 30 day warranty.

Also, my sister sold a 15 yr old Jeep 2 years ago for $3200 and the woman drove it for 27 days and wanted her money back because the taillight lenses were tinted. The judge ordered to refund her money under the lemon law because it wouldn’t pass inspection. The woman had to pay like $0.57 per mile she put on it.

 

[Inthehighdesert]

None of this has one bearing on the op’s situation.

Unfortunately your AI is lying to you because that’s not found in the link. Mileage is never assumed by Massachusetts unless the actual mileage is unknown. Even then, it would be assumed to be 124,999 and require a 30 day warranty.

Also, my sister sold a 15 yr old Jeep 2 years ago for $3200 and the woman drove it for 27 days and wanted her money back because the taillight lenses were tinted. The judge ordered to refund her money under the lemon law because it wouldn’t pass inspection. The woman had to like $0.57 per mile she put on it.

 

[VMS Racing]

Hi VMS - Thank you for your response and information here. Would you suggest I wait for an actual written statement from Ford here? or just take the car asap to another mechanic?

Also, would you recommend I not drive the car? or would it be ok to drive for <10 miles to a new mechanic?

I would drive it. The ideal thing here would be for the dealer to actually find the cause of the PO300 code and fix it and you can then decide if you want to keep the car or sell it. Here are a couple of good videos on cylinder wall scoring, which is typical is some Porsche engines. They usually do not address the issue until the pistons start ticking or slapping and they start burning oil, and that causes the cylinders to misfire. For a piston to start ticking or slapping there has to be a ton of wear on the cylinders.

 

[gilbenja]

I would drive it. The ideal thing here would be for the dealer to actually find the cause of the PO300 code and fix it and you can then decide if you want to keep the car or sell it. Here are a couple of good videos on cylinder wall scoring, which is typical is some Porsche engines. They usually do not address the issue until the pistons start ticking or slapping and they start burning oil, and that causes the cylinders to misfire. For a piston to start ticking or slapping there has to be a ton of wear on the cylinders.

So is this a correct summary as I feel like I’m getting slightly conflicting responses here.

Would be super helpful if someone could copy / paste my write up below and respond in red.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

(1) Based on the initial photos, there is scoring, however, it does not look excessive enough to say the engine needs to be replaced.

(2) The scoring is not a good sign, but (as VMS racing said) most engines he has looked at has minor scoring.

The scoring most likely is not what caused the misfire codes. Seems like most are saying the mechanic jumped the gun and this would be far down the list of checks to address my issue.

- But that being said, is this a good thing that we saw the scores? Or is this just a scare that was unnecessary as most cars have this?

- Does this mean the engine is a ticking time bomb?

- This in particular is making me feel conflicted. Seems like some are saying the engine is trash — consider selling the car after. Others seem to say it’s not a big deal so long as it is not excessive or deep scoring.

- If Ford can somehow get the insurance/warranty to approve a new engine at $0 to me, would that be worth it? After watching the videos that VMS provided, it seems like it’s a combination of the excessive wear / if it passes the following tests ….

a. Check for piston slap

b. Abnormal oil consumption

c. Smoke on start up

d. Soot in the tail pipe

(3) best course of action would be to wait for the Ford report and if they did not address these issues, have them do the following…

a. Compression and leak down test

b. Have oil filter cut open and oil examined.

c. Piston slap, oil consumption, smoke on start up, and soot in tail pipe check

(4) This dealership is very unresponsive / difficult to work with. Any form of real response has been from me walking in person -- To be fair, the rep has been telling me this could take over a week so I feel that I should not be bombarding him with a lot of questions before they even release the official statement.

- With that being said, I have found an independent shop near the dealership called “PK Auto Design” that was recommended in this forum. They specialize in the S550 platform for tunes/wheels and tires.

(5) I will consider taking the car to PK Auto Design if this gets dragged out for more than a week with no concrete answers.

(6) Can anyone opine is this holds any weight or relevance to the situation -> My car was sitting in the parking lot the last two visits to the dealership. The car was not on a lift or even in the service shop. Not sure if they are trying to look for an angle to use my warranty or if they are just backed up and not putting my car on high priority.

(7) Last bit of detail. Car was driving fine for 800 miles. First check engine light came on, P0300, and cleared itself. Drove the car the next day, and after stepping on it or flooring the gas pedal, and there was strange noise coming from the mid section or exhaust of the car. It sounded like a piece of plastic was flapping in the rear. Almost sounded like exhaust burbles or backfires but not in a good way. This was what I initially heard inside the cabin with the windows rolled up. After that, I decided not to drive the car hard and shortly after, another flashing check engine light came on - which then turned into a solid check light which is on the dash now.

 

[gilbenja]

Hello; I have to agree about the red flag. I figured, perhaps incorrectly, that you are not savvy about engines from your initial post. Pretty sure a shop would notice such as well. One reason i asked some of my questions.

Hello; A real possibility is any damage that may have occurred is already done so a short drive likely will not do more. Put another way. if the current shop comes back with you need a new engine for a reason not yet mentioned the damage is already done.
Based on what is posted your engine is already trash or the internal mechanical condition is acceptable. Either way you have little to lose with a short drive. if the condition is truly already bad, then continued driving will add to the problem but overall will not much matter.
If the slight scoring in the cylinders is all there is then driving more is likely not fatal. I have run scored cylinders for some time. The scratches/scoring likely will allow more blow by which should show up as tail pipe smoke and using oil. Depending on how much scoring will determine how much blowby.

Again I ask if the oil was collected and examined or was the oil filter cut open. Something caused the shop to use a bore scope in the spark plug hole.
I understand pulling the plugs with a misfire. But not the use of a bore scope without some other clue. That said a mechanic is not going to teach you about engines.

I like the idea of a compression & leak down test as mentioned. Maybe the shop already did these????

You are down to either trusting the shop or getting a second opinion. Likely you already have a nice bill for the work already done. Thing is we on this thread cannot give you much of an answer from a distance.

So is this a correct summary as I feel like I’m getting slightly conflicting responses here.

Would be super helpful if someone could copy / paste my write up below and respond in red.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

(1) Based on the initial photos, there is scoring, however, it does not look excessive enough to say the engine needs to be replaced.

(2) The scoring is not a good sign, but (as VMS racing said) most engines he has looked at has minor scoring.

The scoring most likely is not what caused the misfire codes. Seems like most are saying the mechanic jumped the gun and this would be far down the list of checks to address my issue.

- But that being said, is this a good thing that we saw the scores? Or is this just a scare that was unnecessary as most cars have this?

- Does this mean the engine is a ticking time bomb?

- This in particular is making me feel conflicted. Seems like some are saying the engine is trash — consider selling the car after. Others seem to say it’s not a big deal so long as it is not excessive or deep scoring.

- If Ford can somehow get the insurance/warranty to approve a new engine at $0 to me, would that be worth it? After watching the videos that VMS provided, it seems like it’s a combination of the excessive wear / if it passes the following tests ….

a. Check for piston slap

b. Abnormal oil consumption

c. Smoke on start up

d. Soot in the tail pipe

(3) best course of action would be to wait for the Ford report and if they did not address these issues, have them do the following…

a. Compression and leak down test

b. Have oil filter cut open and oil examined.

c. Piston slap, oil consumption, smoke on start up, and soot in tail pipe check

(4) This dealership is very unresponsive / difficult to work with. Any form of real response has been from me walking in person -- To be fair, the rep has been telling me this could take over a week so I feel that I should not be bombarding him with a lot of questions before they even release the official statement.

- With that being said, I have found an independent shop near the dealership called “PK Auto Design” that was recommended in this forum. They specialize in the S550 platform for tunes/wheels and tires.

(5) I will consider taking the car to PK Auto Design if this gets dragged out for more than a week with no concrete answers.

(6) Can anyone opine is this holds any weight or relevance to the situation -> My car was sitting in the parking lot the last two visits to the dealership. The car was not on a lift or even in the service shop. Not sure if they are trying to look for an angle to use my warranty or if they are just backed up and not putting my car on high priority.

(7) Last bit of detail. Car was driving fine for 800 miles. First check engine light came on, P0300, and cleared itself. Drove the car the next day, and after stepping on it or flooring the gas pedal, and there was strange noise coming from the mid section or exhaust of the car. It sounded like a piece of plastic was flapping in the rear. Almost sounded like exhaust burbles or backfires but not in a good way. This was what I initially heard inside the cabin with the windows rolled up. After that, I decided not to drive the car hard and shortly after, another flashing check engine light came on - which then turned into a solid check light which is on the dash now.

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