Aluminator Failure

[Zrussian13]

Knock is not a mythical creature. A setup can be created to find the source of the sound. I haven’t chased knock in many years but before the smart days(GN days), microphones were used to find it. For the coyote it looks like the knock frequency should be around 6.18khz. Putting a few microphones on the engine and exhaust would get you a pretty good indication of where the sound was coming from and what particular sound was causing the overlap.

I agree something has to be causing it. The car has 85k hard miles on it. Every last bit of it could be a little loose and rattling. I'll make you the same offer. Feel free to come throw money at it to find the cause. Or better yet, bring a microphone and have at it. I've ran through it long enough it's not worth chasing anymore. When the time comes to replace any new major components, I'll switch tunes and check for knock. Until then I'm good. Az gas sucks dick anyway so I was already running boostane and meth before my knock issues for insurance. Only thing I changed was uping the boostane per tank.

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[Grimreaper]

Glad it's back together for you.

The pcmtech software looks amazing. Fingers crossed they get competitive with hptuners pricing like they are in AUS. Why not have your bud tune it?

At 8psi, and 4oz boostane pro my tune will add up to 20.5ish degrees above 5k. 10psi it drops to 19 to 19.5 degrees. Haven't uncapped things to see if it will add more. This is what roush allowed on their tune though

 

[stannypack]

me reading through this whole thread at work

 

[Nawsad123]

Hey guys, been awhile since I posted anything. Just wanted to let you know that I found the limits of an 11:1 aluminator.

My stock motor failed at 12,800 miles from a snapped crankshaft snout. It was supercharged from day 1 with a whipple gen 2 stage 2.

I ended up going with an 11:1 aluminator and adding a MFP crank support. I decided to go "all in" for a max effort pump gas build and purchased DW 95 lb injectors, BAP, calimer stage 3 MT-82, RXT 1200 HD clutch, and PBD tune while the new motor was getting installed.

Everything was put together August 2019 and proceeded to put a few hundred miles on the car before making the power pulls and remote dyno tuning.

With a 3.5 pulley and 96 octane ( 93 plus a bottle of boostane shot) PBD was able to tune me to the likes of 819 whp and 608 ft lbs.

Car drove great and was able to get me into the 9s and 138 mph at 4120 lb race weight.

6,000 miles later I put the car back on the same dyno and only make 764 whp and 556 ft lbs.


I proceeded to pull the plugs and do a compression and leak down test.

Compression / leak down was as follows

Cylinder 5 - 200 leak down test 82/100 psi
Cylinder 6 - 230 leak down test 88/100 psi
Cylinder 7 - 195 leak down test 80/100 psi
Cylinder 8 - 205 leak down test 70/100 psi
Cylinder 1 - 227 leak down test 99/100 psi
Cylinder 2 - 225 leak down test 92/100 psi
Cylinder 3 - 200 leak down test 86/100 psi
Cylinder 4 - 200 leak down test 72/100 psi

I proceed to pull the motor and have it shipped to Ford Performance in hopes of being covered under the 24 month, 24,000 mile warranty.

Attached is the copy of the inspection report.

I was told by PBD that I would be able to run as low as a 3.325 pulley with my 21.5 timing tune on 96 octane fuel.

I never went smaller than the 3.5 pulley because I didn't want the hassle of having to change to a different size belt.

Every dyno pull and 1/4 mile pass over the past year has been data logged and all logs consistently show 0 knock. No -/+ , just 0.

My original PBD tunes were showing knock even at 16 degrees and partial throttle. PBD was convinced the knock was false, made some type of revision (don't know what because tune is locked) and all knock went away.

I trust PBD and them giving me 21+ timing for use with 96 octane as I don't believe they would give me anything they didn't consider safe.

My question is why wouldn't any of my logs show knock when apparently there was a considerable amount of detonation going on ( see attached picture)?

Also, has anyone else had head gasket failures at 800 + hp?

I'm not throwing any shade at PBD, but just wanted to share my experience. PBD has been great to me over the past 2 years and I have no complaints with their customer service or response times.

Currently, the motor is at Holbrook Racing Engines who is working on getting me a quote for repair.

Hey,

I myself have also found the limits to my alluminator - 750ish rwhp after about 5 yrs and it crapped out. Similar to you, I was experiencing knock under WOT (few degrees 2-3). Upon initial inspection it was deemed a blown head gasket as shown on a boroscope with coolant in the cylinders. Decided to open it up - upon further inspection, saw cylinder 4 and 5 spark plugs had 0 gap in them....further inspection revealed rust like scoring on the inside of the cylinder walls. In addition, saw some small hairline cracks in the block near the cylinders....shit sucks.

Shop mentioned that itd be best to potentially go after a bottom end, while reusing my gen 2 heads and top end components

Just pulled the trigger on a FFRE Stage 3 shortblock - hefty price, but its sleeved, rated for 1500rwhp etc. Upgraded my Vortech V3si to a V7 YSL, and my transmission is being upgraded wth PBH 1000 hp kit + billet planetary....looking forward to the final Hp numbers.

The aluminator was good while it lasted, but I dont think it held up any differently than what a stock motor would tbh. It was the 'cheapest option' for a long block during the start of Covid.

 

[Pistol_91]

This was an interesting thread. Glad this came back up so I could read it. Thanks nawsad.
Sorry about your loss.

 

[stang17]

Hey,

I myself have also found the limits to my alluminator - 750ish rwhp after about 5 yrs and it crapped out. Similar to you, I was experiencing knock under WOT (few degrees 2-3). Upon initial inspection it was deemed a blown head gasket as shown on a boroscope with coolant in the cylinders. Decided to open it up - upon further inspection, saw cylinder 4 and 5 spark plugs had 0 gap in them....further inspection revealed rust like scoring on the inside of the cylinder walls. In addition, saw some small hairline cracks in the block near the cylinders....shit sucks.

Shop mentioned that itd be best to potentially go after a bottom end, while reusing my gen 2 heads and top end components

Just pulled the trigger on a FFRE Stage 3 shortblock - hefty price, but its sleeved, rated for 1500rwhp etc. Upgraded my Vortech V3si to a V7 YSL, and my transmission is being upgraded wth PBH 1000 hp kit + billet planetary....looking forward to the final Hp numbers.

The aluminator was good while it lasted, but I dont think it held up any differently than what a stock motor would tbh. It was the 'cheapest option' for a long block during the start of Covid.

Without the knock sensors turned off and running pump gas it was just a matter of time before the random batch of bad gas showed up and ruined the party.

2 of our other cars have been running strong with 11:1 gen 2 aluminators with ARP head studs, MLS gaskets, and rings regapped for boost. One got over 120k miles living on E at over 900whp driven hard everyday before cylinder 8 not liking a no lift wot box shift.

I honestly think if it wasn't for the forged pistons in the aluminator, I would have most likely completed broke a ringland rather than raised it.

Over all, the experience was a great learning lesson of not what to do and who not to take advice from.

On another note, the Holbrook Racing Engines motor has been running great without hiccup. I have been running Pcmtec Canbus flex fuel that has been blending in the correct ignition timing based on ethanol level. With multi tune custom OS its nice to be able to go from 600 whp to 750 on the fly.

 

[Badhabit50]

This thread was absolute cinema.

 

[HKusp]

I, too, enjoyed reading this thread since it popped back up.

 

[wingnutt]

Holy cow, missed it the first time…gonna need a glass of bourbon to read this one


EDIT…it’s so old I forgot that I replied in it back then

 

[Nawsad123]

FFRE stage 3 short block - all buttoned up with MMR Timing - redid the gen 2 heads with Ferrea valves - PBH 6r80 1000hp kit - billet planetary - Vortech V7 YSI. Went all out on this one..

 

[Rhamlinii]

11.0:1 compression for a max effort pump gas setup? Instead of making the power with cylinder pressure and boost. YOU IN ALL YOUR WISDOM DECIDED TO GO FOR "the detonation threshold", in which you lost. SMDH, you can't make this up.

The GT500 makes 900-950 rwhp on pump gas with 9.5:1 compression. It's not hard to do, but you high compression guys are best when it comes to taking advice and paying 2-3 times until you get it right.

 

[Rhamlinii]

FFRE stage 3 short block - all buttoned up with MMR Timing - redid the gen 2 heads with Ferrea valves - PBH 6r80 1000hp kit - billet planetary - Vortech V7 YSI. Went all out on this one..

Are you changing the ECU? What cams are you running?

 

[Nawsad123]

Are you changing the ECU? What cams are you running?

Stock cams. Stock ecu

 

[Rhamlinii]

Why did you decide to lock them out?

 

[Platinum_5.0]

Here's how I believe it all went. First you want a max effort pump gas boost/horsepower tune. First mistake but ok. Correct me if I'm wrong but sounds like you had knock right from the start when tuning on straight 93. Usually knock from the intinal tune will have the tuner send a second file pulling timing way down to confirm to himself if it's false or not. If he is under the understanding it's good 93 and sends a file of 13/14* then you should get no knock at all. If the tuner sees knock on this file, now he is convinced you are seeing false knock. Usually he will ask you to check over the car to try and verify if you can see anything creating the false knock. Did that happen? Many things can create false knock but the most tricky one on an engine that was apart and re assembled can be with the knock sensors themselves. If they are left loose it tightened down too much they can throw false knock, or if they are not positioned properly and turned in a way they are against the block, they can all throw false knock. I believe you had an issue that was actually causing you to see false knock which played a huge part in your engine failure because due to that, it caused you and your tuner to feel confident to turn the sensors off (which they usually need your consent to do). Your false knock readings would have blinded your logs from actually knowing how well your 93 was performing AND how well the engine was responding to your "96 octane mix" If you can't see actually data from the straight 93 then you have absolutely NO IDEA what you actually need to add from boostane to make 96. You were doomed right from the beginning. Knock sensors should NEVER be turned off for a pump gas tune. NEVER.

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