Deatschwerks X3 Fuel system

[bankyf]

Damn. I was planning on adding a check valve to mine in hopes to get rid of the barking seal and make some of the cold starts a little smoother. Oh well, I've gotten used to the seal!

@NGOT8R the X3 kit looks great!

I know I've heard about this before, but can you remind me? When do you get the seal noise?

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[SheepDog]

This x 1000. Or pump failures in staged setups as well. It's all about diagnostics and hidden failures. At least the twin pump setups from Ford have independent electronic diagnostics. This is why I'm a proponent of single pumps when possible...no fuel is better than not-enough fuel.

Would it not be possible to somehow monitor either Amperage or Ohms on each pump? When a pump fails, the controller is still sending voltage to that pump, but I would expect that either amperage or resistance in that pump must spike, right?

 

[engineermike]

Would it not be possible to somehow monitor either Amperage or Ohms on each pump? When a pump fails, the controller is still sending voltage to that pump, but I would expect that either amperage or resistance in that pump must spike, right?

Yes and that’s basically how ford does it. Amps too low or too high and it triggers a code. However, afaik that doesn’t exist in aftermarket setups and building it is possible but is also a science project.

 

[J17GT]

I know I've heard about this before, but can you remind me? When do you get the seal noise?

Usually just on initial fuel system prime on a cold start.

 

[GL95]

Is it relocated to one of the side NPT ports on the rail and if so, did you have to extend the wiring on the factory connector to reach the sensor? I didn’t see where the switch would be integrated into the diagram and was very curious about that.

Yeah it goes into the NPT pores, the location end up being prettt close to stock so no wires need moving. Same thing with the high pressure line on the opposite side, should have a quick connect nipple that threads in the rail

 

[SheepDog]

Yes and that’s basically how ford does it. Amps too low or too high and it triggers a code. However, afaik that doesn’t exist in aftermarket setups and building it is possible but is also a science project.

So what about using 2 pumps that do not have check valves. If one pump fails, the second pump will backflow through the failed pump right back into the tank, and cut the fuel to the engine. Or will just enough fuel still make it to the engine to go horribly lean and melt a piston?

 

[cbrtrx]

So what about using 2 pumps that do not have check valves. If one pump fails, the second pump will backflow through the failed pump right back into the tank, and cut the fuel to the engine. Or will just enough fuel still make it to the engine to go horribly lean and melt a piston?

Pressure will drop very low the car will start to stumble and stall.

 

[engineermike]

Not a terrible idea, but you’d have to run a single check valve after the tee to address hot restart vapor lock.

 

[SheepDog]

Pressure will drop very low the car will start to stumble and stall.

Exactly. Im thinking about ways to protect the motor when a pump fails (in a multi pump setup), since there isn't really any way to monitor the pumps. When you only have a single pump and it shits the bed, no fuel goes to the engine, and it shuts down. In a 2 or 3 pump setup, when one pump fails, you don't' know it and then it goes lean, and melts things.

 

[SheepDog]

Not a terrible idea, but you’d have to run a single check valve after the tee to address hot restart vapor lock.

Yessir, I have a Radium Check valve right before my feed line goes into the Y block to distribute fuel to the DI and Port injectors. Right now, I have 2x 274's, so fuel gets trapped in between the pumps and the Y block, so even when pressure bleeds off through the return side at the Pressure regulator, there is still fuel/pressure in the feed line. Are you saying I'd need a second check valve further back to keep fuel in the feed line, like maybe right before or after my Fuel filter? (using 2x pumps with no check valve, like the 295's)

 

[wingnutt]

Nothing to add here, just chiming in that this is one of the better, more informative threads that I have seen in awhile…carry on gents

 

[engineermike]

So perhaps a pair of check-valveless dw400s in the x3, kpm, or even gt500 bucket, single check valve in main line, and either a pair of stock fpdms or a single vaporworck pwm controller, controlled by the oem logic and fpc signal. If using a pair of fpdms you could add a pair of baps as well.

 

[SheepDog]

single vaporworck pwm controller, controlled by the oem logic and fpc signal.

Im not sure this controller has this ability. Mine is using a 3 BAR Bosch map sensor to determine pump speed, but it's still responding, "after the fact".

 

[SheepDog]

Update from VaporWorx:

Hey Adrian,

I’ve not dived into the Ford driver modules. Do you know if the positive side to the fuel pump is pulsed or the negative side? I can do either way.

Your other questions:

1. Can you build/configure one that will provide a quick reference to show if/when a pump has failed (such as optional wiring leads that can be connected to LED lights on the dash that will illuminate when there’s a failure on pump A, B or C)?

RE: A set of wires can be run from the VaporWorx controller to a dash mounted light that will indicate when the VaporWorx controlled pumps go on/off. The Ford FPDM may have diagnostics for if fuel pressure is falling excessively but cannot point to which of he three pumps is the issue.

2. Does it come with all of the necessary wiring?
RE: Yes. One part is not in stock and will take about a week to come in.

3. How does the system tie into my existing factory fuel pump driver module?
RE: See here. Just need to confirm if the FPDM is a positive or negative pulse. If positive pulse then it will be one of the kits on the webpage based on the engine MAP sensor. If you would rather not tie into the engine MAP sensor then a stand-alone MAP sensor can be supplied for $75 that includes a mounting bracket, hose etc.

https://www.vaporworx.com/shop/product/ally-auto-on-pwm-fuel-pump-controller/

4 . Are there any other components needed?
RE: Whenever a returnless system is use a safety overpressure valve is needed. Please see here about 2/3 down the page:

https://www.vaporworx.com/resources/fds/4-fuel-pressure-regulators/

Not sure who your tuner is, but I do know that after initially having some fuel trim issues where my trims would sort of wander all over the place, Wengerd had to make some adjustment in my calibration so that it would "reflect' that of a returnless system. After that, my trims were dead nuts on.

"set up the injector flow rates as returnless on the new revision so it still calculates fuel pressure to modify the injectors flow rates unlike a return system that keeps a 1/1 delivered pressure". (DW, 2024)

If your Tuner is Wengerd, he will know what to do, if not, you're doing it wrong.

 

[NGOT8R]

Not sure who your tuner is, but I do know that after initially having some fuel trim issues where my trims would sort of wander all over the place, Wengerd had to make some adjustment in my calibration so that it would "reflect' that of a returnless system. After that, my trims were dead nuts on.

"set up the injector flow rates as returnless on the new revision so it still calculates fuel pressure to modify the injectors flow rates unlike a return system that keeps a 1/1 delivered pressure". (DW, 2024)

If your Tuner is Wengerd, he will know what to do, if not, you're doing it wrong.

I’m a ways off from needing to be tuned, but I’ll certainly keep this in mind. Thanks!

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