Deatschwerks X3 Fuel system

[NGOT8R]

I have made the decision to run the Deatschwerks X3 fuel system with my upcoming turbo build. The kit utilizes 3 DW400 brushed pumps, but can accommodate a single DW810 or DW440 brushless pump in lieu of one of the 3 DW400 pumps. I have a few questions for the fueling experts.

1. Should I stick with the 3 DW400 pumps what come with the kit or upgrade one of them for the DW810 or DW440 brushless?

2. Will Deatschwerks 1500 injectors be enough injector to support 1100 rwhp with a little overhead room left?

3. If I run the DW810 brushless, should I hardwire it and leave the two DW400 pumps on the FPDM and keep my JMS BAP on those?

I know some will say the BAP is a bandaid, but given the fueling upgrades considered here and the fact that I already have the BAP installed, I would like to keep it if at all possible. Bear in mind that the JMS BAP is not active 100% of the time, it’s only active above 40% throttle.

See links below for product descriptions and capabilities.

https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-401-604-7032

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...stang_X3_Tech_Sheet_7-8-24_1.pdf?v=1722961187

https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-811-c105-1002

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...-b6e0-483c-80ec-1e9a8583281b.pdf?v=1701466016

https://deatschwerks.com/products/9-442-c103-0906?variant=43640191811825#nolinkdefined

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...less_Tech_Sheet.pdf?v=1702576078?v=1702575243

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[HKusp]

You want to run them all together if you go above the DW400 because above that, they aren't internally checked, and the car won't run. You can't stage a pump that doesn't have an internal check valve and unluss I am recalling incorrectly, anything above the DW400 doesn't have a check valve. We tried with @HAVOC_5.0 running twin Hellcat pumps that weren't checked. The pressure bleeds through the pump that isn't receiving power if you stage them and the car won't build fuel pressure.

 

[NGOT8R]

You want to run them all together if you go above the DW400 because above that, they aren't internally checked, and the car won't run. You can't stage a pump that doesn't have an internal check valve and unluss I am recalling incorrectly, anything above the DW400 doesn't have a check valve. We tried with @HAVOC_5.0 running twin Hellcat pumps that weren't checked. The pressure bleeds through the pump that isn't receiving power if you stage them and the car won't build fuel pressure.

Very good point. I currently have a single DW400 pump with an external DW check valve. I learned with the DW400 and warm start issues. I apparently bought an old one without the check valve and had to go back and add the external check valve.

 

[SheepDog]

You definitely don't need the BAP with 3 DW400's.

Check out VaporWorx PWM controllers. Instead of running all 3 pumps full tilt, or having to use a Hobbs switch, this controller behaves more like the factory FPDM by using PWM to control the speed of the pumps, and a standalone MAP sensor to tell the controller how fast or slow to run the pumps. It uses a GM/Bosch MAP sensor that you hook into your vacuum block. When there is manifold vacuum, the controller slows down the pumps when you don't need the fuel volume, but when it sees anything above manifold vacuum it increases the speed of the pumps and runs them 100% at around 3PSI of boost. I have the 2 pump controller - works great. The owner's name is Carl, he is really a smart dude and is happy to talk with you about how it works and how to set it up. I guess he recently joined forces with Aeromotive. The 3-4 pump controller runs pumps 1 and 2 at idle/cruising, and turns on pump 3 when the controller sees boost

ReturnX Return-Type PWM Controller Kit for 3-4 Pump Systems - VaporWorx

 

[HKusp]

Very good point. I currently have a single DW400 pump with an external DW check valve. I learned with the DW400 and warm start issues. I apparently bought an old one without the check valve and had to go back and add the external check valve.

I remember you had that issue with the old one.

 

[engineermike]

My personal belief is that simpler, with less parts, is better. Less pumps is better and not staging them with Hobbs switches is better. Less electronic components is also better if you can. This is why I push the single dw400/bap so hard, because it’s simple.

Anyway, have you done the math to see if a single dw810 can handle it? If so then that would be better than multiple different types of staged pumps. It would be even better if you could control the brushless controller using the pcm pwm output.

 

[NGOT8R]

I’m still looking into it, but have purchased the X3 kit with the 3 DE400 pumps. I want a simple setup that works extremely well. Here’s the 810’s flow chart.

I don’t think it will be enough by itself. I do think the three 400 pumps would do it though.

I guess in my mind I was thinking I could have the brushless 810 support the load for normal driving and super low boost and have the other two aid the 810 for max effort runs at the drag strip to save wear and tear on them since they’re brushed.

I may be way overthinking my needs, with trying to retain parts that I’ve already spend good money on, rather than take a hit and sell them for little or nothing.

 

[engineermike]

Just doing some quick and dirty math, but at 80 psi it flows 680 lph, which is about 19.5 lb/min. If you’re flowing 130 lb/min air and shooting for .8 lambda on e85, you only need about 16.5 lb/min fuel, so you’d have about 20% overhead, and that’s with some pretty safe assumptions baked in.

 

[Nobuemon]

Lmk how the install will go, cause I'm sitting on my X3 with plumbing here, wondering if I can get it done in 4 hours in my apartments' garage without making people too mad.

 

[Blackedoutdreams]

Lmk how the install will go, cause I'm sitting on my X3 with plumbing here, wondering if I can get it done in 4 hours in my apartments' garage without making people too mad.

You can. If you're worried about time constraints, assemble the hat before hand so it's a drop in at that point if it's not already assembled. Shouldn't take more then a couple of hours taking your time altogether.

 

[NGOT8R]

Lmk how the install will go, cause I'm sitting on my X3 with plumbing here, wondering if I can get it done in 4 hours in my apartments' garage without making people too mad.

It’s going to be quite a while before I install mine. I won’t have a place to do the work for the next year. I’m currently buying all of the parts needed for my upcoming turbo install.

I have done some work on my car’s fuel system before though and learned a few things along the way that will be helpful during the X3 install.

- It required dropping the tank on the driver’s side, removing all of the factory line and running all new line.

- There isn’t enough space to run both a supply and return line via the same path as the factory line, therefore, a new path will have to be chosen for the supply line, as it’s the larger of the two lines.

- Use the proper tool for remove the locking ring on the pump hat/basket assembly.

- The use of a tool shown in the link below is what I intend to use to install the fittings onto the braided lines.

https://www.gstpautoparts.com/produ...e=1&gbraid=0AAAAAp2SGWE7Q1KDBJtLXz79n2kHtAoc3

- Run the tank low on fuel before performing the work to make things easier for yourself.

Work slowly and don’t put any time constraints on yourself. Lastly, as @Blackedoutdreams suggested, prep the hat/basket assembly beforehand. Good luck and please come back to share any info that you can with us regarding your install.

 

[NGOT8R]

One other thing I might do, is leave my recently installed new fuel line in place and repurpose it as my return line. This way, I will only have to run a supply line and not have to drop my tank again.

 

[Nobuemon]

You can. If you're worried about time constraints, assemble the hat before hand so it's a drop in at that point if it's not already assembled. Shouldn't take more then a couple of hours taking your time altogether.

I'm more worried to get caught again, last time I was doing oil the management had a whole story about their liability and whatnot.

It’s going to be quite a while before I install mine. I won’t have a place to do the work for the next year. I’m currently buying all of the parts needed for my upcoming turbo install.

I have done some work on my car’s fuel system before though and learned a few things along the way that will be helpful during the X3 install.

- It required dropping the tank on the driver’s side, removing all of the factory line and running all new line.

- There isn’t enough space to run both a supply and return line via the same path as the factory line, therefore, a new path will have to be chosen for the supply line, as it’s the larger of the two lines.

- Use the proper tool for remove the locking ring on the pump hat/basket assembly.

- The use of a tool shown in the link below is what I intend to use to install the fittings onto the braided lines.

https://www.gstpautoparts.com/products/fuel-line-fittings-installation-tool-fuel-hose-connect-tool-kit?currency=USD&variant=48380550119709&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&stkn=e96464c4b155&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAp2SGWE7Q1KDBJtLXz79n2kHtAoc3

- Run the tank low on fuel before performing the work to make things easier for yourself.

Work slowly and don’t put any time constraints on yourself. Lastly, as @Blackedoutdreams suggested, prep the hat/basket assembly beforehand. Good luck and please come back to share any info that you can with us regarding your install.

So a mallet with some creativity won't replace all the tools needed?
Maybe $550 quote from the local shop is not such a bad idea.

 

[Blackedoutdreams]

I'm more worried to get caught again, last time I was doing oil the management had a whole story about their liability and whatnot.


So a mallet with some creativity won't replace all the tools needed?
Maybe $550 quote from the local shop is not such a bad idea.

That sucks. 550 isn't terrible for a shop i guess if that's what it comes down to. If you decide to do it, buy the tool. It'll take you 2 secs with the tool to pop the ring.

 

[NGOT8R]

I'm more worried to get caught again, last time I was doing oil the management had a whole story about their liability and whatnot.


So a mallet with some creativity won't replace all the tools needed?
Maybe $550 quote from the local shop is not such a bad idea.

$550 might not be so bad if you run the risk of violating rules that could create trouble where you lay your head at night. Looking forward to hearing how it turns out for you.

I am curious to know what made you choose the X3?

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