Deatschwerks X3 Fuel system

[WildHorse]

E85 is about 5% less dense than E10, or about 0.04 g/mL.
So I don't understand needing a triple pump for E85 @800 or so wheel.
Maybe if your running a return style (which is pointless) so it can keep
up with the fuel constantly being cycled.

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[NGOT8R]

I reached back out to VaporWorks with the following additional questions:

Their website does say that they can build customs PWM controller to order.

Me: Hi Carl,

I think I’m ready to purchase one of your PWM controllers for the 3-4 pump system for a return style setup. I have just a couple more questions for you before I do, so that I can make sure I get the right one and any supporting components that may be needed, so here goes:

1. Can you build/configure one that will provide a quick reference to show if/when a pump has failed (such as optional wiring leads that can be connected to LED lights on the dash that will illuminate when there’s a failure on pump A, B or C)?

2. Does it come with all of the necessary wiring?

3. How does the system tie into my existing factory fuel pump driver module?

4 . Are there any other components needed?

Once I hear back, I should be ready to place an order.

 

[Exploded_Muffin]

E85 is about 5% less dense than E10, or about 0.04 g/mL.
So I don't understand needing a triple pump for E85 @800 or so wheel.
Maybe if your running a return style (which is pointless) so it can keep
up with the fuel constantly being cycled.

The issue is the stoichiometric ratio difference not density difference.
Also not sure what a return vs returnless has to do with the number of pumps. You can run single, double, or triple pumps with either setup.
That said you don't need triple pumps for 800whp on E85 and especially not on a 12:1 compression coyote engine.

 

[cbrtrx]

With brushless pumps now available that can work in a single application I see no reason to use multiple pumps anymore unless you already have them. The dw810 will supply 1000 rwhp with the proper size injectors no worries. The last thing you want to do in a fuel system is make it extra complicated, it's just more points to fail. No point in doing things the hard way.

Another thing I dont think anyone has mentioned yet, that DW bucket with 3 pumps at wot will drain that bucket almost empty before you could hit the end of the 1/4 mile even with the fuel returning back, remember at high psi while wot not as much fuel will be returning back to the basket, that bucket is shallow unlike the radium bucket which is about twice as deep and with 3 large body pumps crammed in it the actual fuel capacity inside of the DW bucket would be very small so basically you'll always want to run about a 1/2 tank of fuel while racing which is fine but then that really defeats the purpose of having a bucket at all.

 

[WildHorse]

Also not sure what a return vs returnless has to do with the number of pumps. You can run single, double, or triple pumps with either setup.

Guess I shoulda said for the 'overkill' factor, larger than necessary fuel lines, etc.

 

[Exploded_Muffin]

With brushless pumps now available that can work in a single application I see no reason to use multiple pumps anymore unless you already have them. The dw810 will supply 1000 rwhp with the proper size injectors no worries. The last thing you want to do in a fuel system is make it extra complicated, it's just more points to fail. No point in doing things the hard way.

Another thing I dont think anyone has mentioned yet, that DW bucket with 3 pumps at wot will drain that bucket almost empty before you could hit the end of the 1/4 mile even with the fuel returning back, remember at high psi while wot not as much fuel will be returning back to the basket, that bucket is shallow unlike the radium bucket which is about twice as deep and with 3 large pumps crammed in it the actual fuel capacity inside of the DW bucket would be very small so basically you'll always want to run about a 1/2 tank of fuel while racing which is fine but then that really defeats the purpose of having a bucket at all.

My thoughts exactly on this. If you're making enough power to really need the volume from 3 pumps that bucket is just there to make you feel good.
Makes no difference vs having naked pumps like Fore triple pump set ups, you'll need enough fuel in that saddle to completely submerge the bucket if you're making any long hits.
The proper way to do it is the KPM system with dual bucketed pumps in both saddles but don't know if anyone has ever installed and vetted that setup for big HP.

 

[NGOT8R]

My thoughts exactly on this. If you're making enough power to really need the volume from 3 pumps that bucket is just there to make you feel good.
Makes no difference vs having naked pumps like Fore triple pump set ups, you'll need enough fuel in that saddle to completely submerge the bucket if you're making any long hits.
The proper way to do it is the KPM system with dual bucketed pumps in both saddles but don't know if anyone has ever installed and vetted that setup for big HP.

Hopefully someone does and we can continue to grow this thread into an “All Things Fuel” thread. Lots of good info. being posted in here.

 

[NGOT8R]

I received my Deatschwerks fuel rails with crossover line, 1500cc injectors and fuel pulsation damper today. I really like the quality of the rails, but don’t know for sure yet if they’ll pair nicely with my Holley Lo-Ram intake manifold.

I took photos of the supplied Holley rails too. My first impression is, the Deatschwerks rails are of a nicer looking, lighter and higher quality design with a matte finish, whereas the Holley Rails are gloss black, not as nice looking and heavier.

The fuel injectors appear to be of high quality as well and come with adapter harnesses. I hope I can get away with running the Deatschwerks rails over the Holley rails, but I’ll run whichever ones I have to.

 

[WildHorse]

I received my Deatschwerks fuel rails with crossover line, 1500cc injectors and fuel pulsation damper today.

DW makes quality components for sure.

 

[Angrey]

E85 is about 5% less dense than E10, or about 0.04 g/mL.
So I don't understand needing a triple pump for E85 @800 or so wheel.
Maybe if your running a return style (which is pointless) so it can keep
up with the fuel constantly being cycled.

It's not about the physical density, it's about the energy density and you need about 30% more fuel (volume flow) delivery with 800 rwhp on E85 vs 800 rwhp on E10 gasoline.

 

[LOL WUT]

Forgive my ignorance, but would this setup require me to change anything with my tuning? Or does the controller provided with this pump do all the magic I need to make it work? Essentially, if I wanted to go to this setup, would it be as straightforward as dropping it in my radium bucket, plugging in the controller and calling it a day?

https://walbrofuelpumps.com/catalog...zm7AMZNL1kQ3NYApqjR00e2qnwO4qDNxVHkrZ7L0dNATs

 

[mejohn50]

Forgive my ignorance, but would this setup require me to change anything with my tuning? Or does the controller provided with this pump do all the magic I need to make it work? Essentially, if I wanted to go to this setup, would it be as straightforward as dropping it in my radium bucket, plugging in the controller and calling it a day?

https://walbrofuelpumps.com/catalog...zm7AMZNL1kQ3NYApqjR00e2qnwO4qDNxVHkrZ7L0dNATs

The PCM fuel pump control PWM signal frequency is adjustable in the calibration, and it doesn’t match the 100hz requirement for that kit.

The off duty cycle would also likely need to be changed as well.

Finally, there’s a signal inversion switch that may or may not need to be flipped (I haven't looked at what that kit needs).

A tune update would be needed.

There’s also all this that may need some tweaking to make it align with the control scheme in that controller.

 

[mejohn50]

I understand what you mean & I don't plan on going cheap with my fuel budget but that is a reason many don't go that route of the link you shared. Although I never have heard of it before it seems like very awesome next level kit.

For the record, I’m not advocating that everyone go out and do a $5k fuel system to make like 700-800whp. In all reality it doesn’t even seem we’d need it to make 900-1000whp on a single pump if some careful and thoughtful component choices are made.

My overall point is that people have no issues going out and spending lots of money on supporting modifications after adding boost, but fuel systems appear to be one area people don’t want to spend the money to do it right, or they don’t want to do it the simplest way possible that works very reliably.

 

[Cordero1]

For the record, I’m not advocating that everyone go out and do a $5k fuel system to make like 700-800whp. In all reality it doesn’t even seem we’d need it to make 900-1000whp on a single pump if some careful and thoughtful component choices are made.

My overall point is that people have no issues going out and spending lots of money on supporting modifications after adding boost, but fuel systems appear to be one area people don’t want to spend the money to do it right, or they don’t want to do it the simplest way possible that works very reliably.

That is what I'm after, simple & reliable, not cheap. If I can just drop in a single pump & hook up a plug & play type of wiring/controller & I'd be more than happy.

 

[mejohn50]

That is what I'm after, simple & reliable, not cheap. If I can just drop in a single pump & hook up a plug & play type of wiring/controller & I'd be more than happy.

I am certain this exists (maybe not 100% plug and play, but close enough) up to significant power levels, let's say 1000whp on E85. Then it goes back to who will tune it. It does seem like there is one mainstream tuner right now who is willing to go a little outside the box on certain hardware choices, including fueling from what I have seen. The DW400+BAP is absolutely the easy button for up to 800whp or so on E85.

The DW810 looks like it can supply a ton of fuel, but I have a few concerns with some non-performance things about it. The older DW brushless pumps, like the DW440, were known to have some issues with starting the car on the first button press and also basically completely losing remote start because the controller doesn't boot up quick enough. I don't know if the DW810 controller has improved this, but it would be something I would need to investigate before getting it. In all reality, the same concerns hold true for the E5LM+controller and/or the ID BPC100...I would need to know how quickly the controllers boot up before dropping the money. This may be meaningless for some people, but it's a dealbreaker for me.

If I were putting a more capable fuel system together for my car today, and I didn't have any concerns about the controllers for the brushless pumps, I would get a DW810, a Radium bucket, and a -8 feed line with filter running in a return-less config. I am not certain my wallet would be able to find the limits of that setup, which is likely well into the range of needing an upgraded short block.

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