Sponsored

Mach 1 vs Camaro SS 1LE

Atlas1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Threads
20
Messages
2,892
Reaction score
4,879
Location
Everett, WA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Audi S6, 2021 Mach 1 'M1985'
Correct. Blackwing will be about a 4 year run. I mis-spoke a bit, so let me correct that now. Cadillac being all electric by 2030 , but still, CT4 / CT5 will transition by 2025. The only ICE Cadillacs between 2026 - 30 will be Escalade. I had forgotten about that. Cadillac going all BEV by 2030. Cadillac VP quoted. An about face is not in the cards. From my perspective, the biggest question is will GM really move all trucks to BEV or Fuel Cell by 2035 if they’re still printing Benjamin’s with every 6.2L or 3.0D version that they sell.
Where are all of these cars going to plug in to recharge? Is this country going to snap it’s fingers and create an electrical grid that can handle this in less than 10 years? I get why manufacturers are pushing the EV crap but does reality ever enter into their plans for the future?
Sponsored

 

Idaho2018GTPremium

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Threads
20
Messages
1,550
Reaction score
1,407
Location
Idaho
Vehicle(s)
2021 Camaro ZL1 A10
Sooooo not true. FWIW, I worked a couple decades in GM Product Portfolio Planning, mostly on powertrain related stuff and was in the room when the decisions were made to mothball the Camaro after 2002. Sales was probably 4th or 5th on the reasons list. For 6th gen Camaro, sales will be at best 3rd on the list. Since I’m no longer at GM I can say what’s on the list without getting fired :crackup:

  1. Camaro shares platform and plant with Cadillac CT4 and CT5. Both of those vehicles will be battery electric by 2025.
  2. Partially because of #1, partially just because they can, GM will introduce a battery electric sports car.
  3. Maybe sales. Maybe.
Well, I hope the Camaro isn't cancelled again. Your response makes me think it's inevitable or likely. Hopefully they can figure out a way to get into the 7th gen.
 

martinjlm

Retired from GM
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Threads
15
Messages
1,670
Reaction score
3,341
Location
Detroit
Vehicle(s)
2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
I wouldn’t expect that Ford would give props to chevy. What I asked for is any indication at all that the Mach 1 project set out to match or exceed the 1le, and none has been provided. I get that it’s an easy assumption to make……Ford set their sights on the 1le and built the Mach 1 to go after it. I mean no disrespect but that’s an ignorant opinion to hold. Just because the mustang and camaro have been competitors for decades does not mean that the return of the Mach 1 has anything to do with the 1le. If you as a buyer want to cross shop those 2 cars you are free to do so. But not everyone else will. And because you compare the 2 does not in any way relate to why Ford set out to do with the Mach 1.

No competitor will ever do that wittingly. The only way to know who considers whom their closest competitors is to see what vehicles are in their competitor test fleets and on their benchmarking hoists. When I was at GM Product Planning Competitor Intelligence, the Corvette team had Ferrari 458s, Porsche GT2 and GT3 and a McLaren. I would expect that if you happened upon the right parking lots in Dearborn you’d find a 1LE, a ZL1 and a Hellcat or two.

I agree the Mach 1 is a sweet car, I love mine :like: We’ll have to agree to disagree on it being a great performance deal. There is no other car in this space (performance/cost) that meets my needs and expectations. I thought it was a good deal and many others do too. That seems to be the common theme with sales between the mustang and camaro lineups as a whole. And I don’t mean that as a dig at the camaro. I think they offer an insane amount of performance for the dollar and if the interior layout appealed to me more and I could see out of them better I would have strongly considered a zl1.
At the end of the day, this is all that matters. What makes you happy and what are you willing to pay for it. GT350, GT500, Mach I, Camaro SS, 1LE, ZL1, and C8 all make me happy. I’d be willing to pay sticker price for any of them except Mach I (I’d buy a used GT350 instead) and CFTP (Base + Handling please).
 

Mikepol2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Threads
140
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
7,122
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
First Name
Mike
Vehicle(s)
2021 Mach 1, 2019 Ram 1500

martinjlm

Retired from GM
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Threads
15
Messages
1,670
Reaction score
3,341
Location
Detroit
Vehicle(s)
2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
Where are all of these cars going to plug in to recharge? Is this country going to snap it’s fingers and create an electrical grid that can handle this in less than 10 years? I get why manufacturers are pushing the EV crap but does reality ever enter into their plans for the future?
We are on our second Chevrolet Volt. We’ve had one in our household since 2012. The amount of times we needed to plug in somewhere other than at home might exceed a number I can count on my hands. Then again it might not. New BEVs that have 300+ mile range will wake up on Monday with more driving range than most people will need for the entire week. But then they’ll get plugged in at home on Monday night and wake up Tuesday with the same amount of range. Rinse and repeat 365 times. For long trips, most new BEVs have logic built into their nav systems to offer to direct you to an available Fast Charge station on your route.

Also, please keep in mind that the number of charging stations available on June 28, 2021 is a small fraction of what will be available in 2025. A very small fraction.
 

Sponsored

martinjlm

Retired from GM
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Threads
15
Messages
1,670
Reaction score
3,341
Location
Detroit
Vehicle(s)
2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
If the car is your weekend or track toy I would strongly strongly consider the SS 1/2LE.

We don't have it here in Europe :(, for the price you get the 1LE for and the dynamic performance you get is bonkers good!

Also don't they offer lifetime drivetrain warranty? I thought I saw that somewhere
Not lifetime. 60 months / 60,000 miles and track use is covered under the warranty.
 

Atlas1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Threads
20
Messages
2,892
Reaction score
4,879
Location
Everett, WA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Audi S6, 2021 Mach 1 'M1985'
We are on our second Chevrolet Volt. We’ve had one in our household since 2012. The amount of times we needed to plug in somewhere other than at home might exceed a number I can count on my hands. Then again it might not. New BEVs that have 300+ mile range will wake up on Monday with more driving range than most people will need for the entire week. But then they’ll get plugged in at home on Monday night and wake up Tuesday with the same amount of range. Rinse and repeat 365 times. For long trips, most new BEVs have logic built into their nav systems to offer to direct you to an available Fast Charge station on your route.

Also, please keep in mind that the number of charging stations available on June 28, 2021 is a small fraction of what will be available in 2025. A very small fraction.
The most populated state can’t keep the electricity on every week night as is……and that problem is only going to get worse before adding in millions of EV’s. Fast charging stations aren’t going to do much good for someone that can’t charge their car up the night before to get to one. Unless you expect the average EV owner to plan their life around scheduling visits to charging stations, which also may or may not have been turned off to conserve power. I have my doubts that is a reasonable expectation.
 

shogun32

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Threads
92
Messages
16,223
Reaction score
14,019
Location
Northern VA
First Name
Matt
Vehicle(s)
'19 GT/PP, '23 GB Mach1, '12 Audi S5 (v8+6mt)
Vehicle Showcase
2
Also, please keep in mind that the number of charging stations available on June 28, 2021 is a small fraction of what will be available in 2025. A very small fraction.
remains to be seen how these outfits dropping chargers in various locations can actually make profit at it. You can burn investor cash in an unprofitable venture for only so long. IMO this is why EV is bust for anything that isn't home-charged and for trips over 2/3 of max range. Sure for the mindless task of commuting to/from the day job where round-trip mileage can be replenished on a 220/240V overnight it's perfectly viable. But now people have to live within their EV means or rent/buy a 2nd car for outlier activities. Or skip the whole virtue-signaling nonsense and buy an ICE or hybrid.

https://www.mirrorreview.com/top-5-electric-vehicle-charging-networks/
check out those spectacular profits!
https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/chpt/earnings

By 2030 (probably sooner) I think the auto industry is going to casually forget about all their stupid pronouncements when the customers simply wont' buy their EVs.
 
Last edited:

Mikepol2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Threads
140
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
7,122
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
First Name
Mike
Vehicle(s)
2021 Mach 1, 2019 Ram 1500
I used to work for a startup fuel cell manufacturer. Great promising technology for making multi-megawatt cells for powering factories. Made a prototype, got an order, burned through investor contributions, 100+ people laid off while the top 4 guys took 7-figure buyouts. Company closed.

What I did learn is that it took an enormous amount of electricity to manufacture these things. Always wondered if they were little more than an electricity passthrough. Instead of right from the coal plant to the factory power supply, coal plant to fuel cell to factory power supply. Would be curious to know the same thing about EV batteries, e.g. are they just basically swapping gas fossil fuel for coal fossil fuel.
 

shogun32

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Threads
92
Messages
16,223
Reaction score
14,019
Location
Northern VA
First Name
Matt
Vehicle(s)
'19 GT/PP, '23 GB Mach1, '12 Audi S5 (v8+6mt)
Vehicle Showcase
2
are they just basically swapping gas fossil fuel for coal fossil fuel.
yes. That said the efficiency of Joule extraction is considerably better at the power plant (MW) scale even with the multiple conversions (line to batt, batt to motor) than it is in dinky 350HP 4-cycle engines.

Batt manufacture (and non-existent recycling) are very energy intensive. So the up-front energy footprint of an EV is WAY worse than an ICE conveyance. Given enough lifetime the EV cross the ICE line and makes headway but it's like 7 years to get there. As year 10+ approaches you have the non-trivial cost and impact of having to swap the pack. And then the value goes upside down again vis-a-vis ICE till ~7 more years pass.
 
Last edited:

Sponsored

Mikepol2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Threads
140
Messages
3,996
Reaction score
7,122
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
First Name
Mike
Vehicle(s)
2021 Mach 1, 2019 Ram 1500
And it feels like we are now at the stage of EV battery production that nuclear was in the early ‘60’s… everyone is quietly ignoring the discussion of what we are going to do with millions of used EV batteries in 50 years.
 

Atlas1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2018
Threads
20
Messages
2,892
Reaction score
4,879
Location
Everett, WA
Vehicle(s)
2017 Audi S6, 2021 Mach 1 'M1985'
And it feels like we are now at the stage of EV battery production that nuclear was in the early ‘60’s… everyone is quietly ignoring the discussion of what we are going to do with millions of used EV batteries in 50 years.
I’d much rather have the nuke disposal problem than the millions of EV batteries to dispose of problem
 

martinjlm

Retired from GM
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Threads
15
Messages
1,670
Reaction score
3,341
Location
Detroit
Vehicle(s)
2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible
We are now so far off topic, I’m not sure we’ll ever make it back.

89041ACF-1925-4E44-88D3-6EDE70F58575.webp
 
OP
OP
TTown

TTown

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2017
Threads
23
Messages
393
Reaction score
185
Location
Tulsa, OK
Vehicle(s)
'20 4Runner; '19 CRV; '06 Explorer; '17 Civic
[QUOTE="shogun32, post: 3295742, member: 39823"
By 2030 (probably sooner) I think the auto industry is going to casually forget about all their stupid pronouncements when the customers simply wont' buy their EVs.
[/QUOTE]

I wish we could all come back here in 2030 to visit this quote and see how wrong it was. Granted, ICE vehicles will be on the road for perhaps another 30 years (as the last ones sold slowly die away), but electric will be the only thing for sale (new) in another 15 years or so. The manufacturers will simply not offer any ICE vehicles for sale.
Sponsored

 
 








Top