Sway Bars - So Many Choices

[TeeLew]

Just checking...

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[Dana Pants]

What I learned from this thread is that if I want to rip the mounting ears off my struts I need a peddlers swaybar.

 

[Check06]

Just to add to this thread.

Added BMR front and rear bars with there end links and it made a noticeable difference in keeping the car flat.

The rear bar came with clamps that there instructions say to place on the inside of the bar but i wasnt able to due to the frame mounts for the rear bar itself so they are on the outside.

I was disappointed to see clamps instead of a welded ring on the rear bar as with the front but it what it is. No grease fittings on the front bar mounts either but they are in the rear and very close to my exhaust.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Just to add to this thread.

Added BMR front and rear bars with there end links and it made a noticeable difference in keeping the car flat.

The rear bar came with clamps that there instructions say to place on the inside of the bar but i wasnt able to due to the frame mounts for the rear bar itself so they are on the outside.

I was disappointed to see clamps instead of a welded ring on the rear bar as with the front but it what it is. No grease fittings on the front bar mounts either but they are in the rear and very close to my exhaust.

If it makes you feel any better I haven’t found a grease gun with a long enough attachment to actually grease the mount zerks on the swaybar mounts that I have. Its a horribly inconvenient place to grease on this chassis. Even if the line is long enough its hard to get your hand in there.

The clamps will be fine on the outside, and ya, clamps are an awkward solution - it should be an integral part IMHO.

 

[KellTrac]

Too much inconsistency on the S550 subframe. The locking collars are far superior to welded on washers with massive spacing.

 

[Järn]

@TeeLew "The sheer number of options these engineers come up with is pretty silly. Look at those front springs."
@NightmareMoon "For the OEM, I'm sure they have some internal targets for ride frequency or body roll or something."

With the new (to me) spring rates for GT500 and Mach1, I have updated my Ride Frequency chart:

		Front Spring lbs/inch	Rear Spring lbs/inch	Front Ride Frequency	Rear Ride Frequency	Average Ride Frequency	Rear/Front RF Ratio
GT non-PP		160​	668​	1.32​	1.40​	1.36​	6.28%​
GT PP1		165​	728​	1.34​	1.46​	1.40​	9.25%​
GT PP2		198​	822​	1.47​	1.55​	1.51​	5.98%​
GT Mach1	Standard	194​	657​	1.45​	1.39​	1.42​	-4.28%​
GT Mach1	With Handling Package	211​	742​	1.51​	1.48​	1.50​	-2.46%​
GT350 (2016-18)	3760 lbs.	194​	914​	1.43​	1.63​	1.53​	13.96%​
GT350 (2019+)	3760 lbs.	211​	857​	1.49​	1.58​	1.53​	5.81%​
GT350R	3650 lbs.	240​	914​	1.60​	1.64​	1.62​	2.45%​
GT500	4225 lbs.	251​	885​	1.50​	1.55​	1.52​	3.76%​
GT500 CFTP	4182 lbs.	268​	942​	1.55​	1.61​	1.58​	3.60%​

Thinking about the ride frequency for all the different models and specifically the "performance" models (PP2, Mach1 HP, GT350, GT500), my personal opinion is that the "internal targets for ride frequency" for the best handling/performing models is a ride frequency of 1.50, 1.51, 1.52, 1.53.
Looking at the GT350 in detail by comparing 2017-2018 to 2019+, they kept the same ride frequency: 1.53. Conclusion: The "sweet spot" for best handling, on a non-track model, is 1.50 to 1.53. Each of these models is then further tuned with different sway bars.

Note: my average ride frequency is a simple (Front RF + Rear RF) / 2. Perhaps an engineer would advise me to use ((Front RF * Front Weight %) + (Rear RF * Rear Weight%))

 

[Check06]

Too much inconsistency on the S550 subframe. The locking collars are far superior to welded on washers with massive spacing.

Interesting but i guess not surprising. I do like the feel of the car with bars on much more though. Front is set to middle and back is full soft for now.

If it makes you feel any better I haven’t found a grease gun with a long enough attachment to actually grease the mount zerks on the swaybar mounts that I have. Its a horribly inconvenient place to grease on this chassis. Even if the line is long enough its hard to get your hand in there.

The clamps will be fine on the outside, and ya, clamps are an awkward solution - it should be an integral part IMHO.

The front is crowded, especially with a P1X stage 2 crank pulley added but it all fits. I greased them thoroughly so i imagine it should be good for awhile. Greasing the end link fittings on the car wasnt fun either.

 

[LSchicago]

Ready to take mine off. Just dead weight. Can't really carve corners on drag radials anyway.

 

[TeeLew]

Too much inconsistency on the S550 subframe. The locking collars are far superior to welded on washers with massive spacing.

If you've race karts much, you get used to trusting split collars.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Too much inconsistency on the S550 subframe. The locking collars are far superior to welded on washers with massive spacing.

The stock bars have collars so…?

Conclusion: The "sweet spot" for best handling, on a non-track model, is 1.50 to 1.53.

Yeah, that's definitely what Ford thinks is right for the market. There's nothing particularly magic about that number tho.

 

[TeeLew]

@TeeLew "The sheer number of options these engineers come up with is pretty silly. Look at those front springs."
@NightmareMoon "For the OEM, I'm sure they have some internal targets for ride frequency or body roll or something."

​

Conclusion: The "sweet spot" for best handling, on a non-track model, is 1.50 to 1.53. Each of these models is then further tuned with different sway bars.

In my experience, you're being overly generous.


<addition>: I'd pay reasonable money to sit in a corporate meeting room and watch engineers explain how chasing ride frequency targets to a 0.01 Hz precision is meaningful or even discernable. Anyone who truly appreciates the implications of such a change will be a bit skeptical concerning the importance of it.

 

[SlowStangGT]

from Brian's spreadsheet. He might have updates but there isn't another public source that I know of.

Swaybar				Front Rate	Rear Rate		Front Wheel Rate	Rear Wheel Rate
GT PP				295	123		290	75
GT350				350	130		344	79
GT350R				350	230		344	140
BMR soft				377	200		371	122
BMR med				439	289		432	176
BMR stiff				501	378		493	230
Eibach soft				372	198		366	120
Eibach med				475	234		467	142
Eibach stiff				515	285		507	173
Steeda soft					280		0	170
Steeda med soft					350		0	213
Steeda med stiff					N/A			N/A
Steeda stiff					425		0	259
Pedders soft				455	170		448	103
Pedders med				492	197		484	120
Pedders stiff				530	224		522	136

Interesting to note that the updated sheet has 230 for the GT350R rate. Previously, the number was 157, per https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/sway-bars.119344/post-2503192.
I wonder where this new value came from? My Google-fu failed to yield any results

If the new number is true, then the Pedders soft is actually the least stiff upgrade!

 

[SlowStangGT]

Digging deeper, I found some info on the PP2 sway bar.
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/pp2-swaybar-data-anyone-have-it.122203/

Ford claims the PP2 rear sway bar is 67% stiffer than the PP1. It is a solid 24mm rear sway bar.

Bmac's OEM PP rate is accurate; Cortex has OEM measurements for the sway bars here: https://cortexracing.com/product/2015-ford-mustang-eibach-anti-roll-front-rear-sway-bar-kit-s550/

Given the PP1 rear sway bar is 123 lb/in (75 lb/in wheel rates), that would mean PP2 rear sway bar is roughly 205 lb/in (125 lb/in wheel rates).

The GT350R, though hollow, should have a similar roll stiffness per: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/pp2-swaybar-data-anyone-have-it.122203/post-2551400

Given this info, the stated 230 lb/in seems to be not far off given the above estimates. With this knowledge, the Pedders rear bar is probably the best possible upgrade for the rear bar, if additional roll stiffness is desired! But one looming question still stands: is the bar still too stiff?

I have yet to reach the level of skill where I can [safely and consistently] approach my car's limits on the track. I'm running the stock PP rear bar right now; I'll revisit this thread when the time comes

 

[bnightstar]

I run Steeda Race Bar on the Middle setting and OEM PP1 rear bar.
Steeda rates for the 1"-3/8 bar are as fallow:

Soft - 520
Soft Med - 580 (this is my setting)
Stiff Med - 650
Stiff - 725

This rates are disclosed by Steeda in one of there treads here in the forum. Hope this helps to add to table.

In other words Steeda Soft is as stiff as Eibach Stiff setting.

 

[shogun32]

I run Steeda Race Bar on the Middle setting and OEM PP1 rear bar.
Steeda rates for the 1"-3/8 bar are as fallow:

yeah it's crazy beefy. Thanks for the info, I updated my spreadsheet.

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