SCCA CAM-C Thread

[TeeLew]

So Brian has told me a couple times to look at CAM-C. What kind of power is generally seen in CAM? The rules couldn't be more open, so it makes you think everyone must be hitting some pretty serious numbers. Is this reality or just my perception? It is autocross, so how beneficial does that power end up being? Are the cars themselves more race oriented or daily drivers?

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[Norm Peterson]

So Brian has told me a couple times to look at CAM-C. What kind of power is generally seen in CAM? The rules couldn't be more open, so it makes you think everyone must be hitting some pretty serious numbers. Is this reality or just my perception? It is autocross, so how beneficial does that power end up being? Are the cars themselves more race oriented or daily drivers?

My understanding of the CAM classes is that the 200-treadwear requirement also limits the usefulness of big power.


Norm

 

[strengthrehab]

Dennis is putting down some good power, but I don't think most people are doing the high HP dance. I don't know for sure. A lot of the cars I've seen are cars that could be driven daily if needed. I could be wrong, though.

 

[kz]

So Brian has told me a couple times to look at CAM-C. What kind of power is generally seen in CAM? The rules couldn't be more open, so it makes you think everyone must be hitting some pretty serious numbers. Is this reality or just my perception? It is autocross, so how beneficial does that power end up being? Are the cars themselves more race oriented or daily drivers?

Read this thread about - specifically about jpaulson's 2nd place at Nats last year - on what was a completely stock powertrain. Look at Devin Taylor's results this year (in CAM-T) - he's running just over 300hp in his car...

There are so many things to fix in these cars that power would be last thing I would do unless you are going for total build like boardkat. And the question is - what Norm said - how much of it can you put down...

 

[boardkat]

as others have already stated, you don't need power to compete in CAM (i'm focusing on multiple disciplines now, including time trialing, where power is very much needed), which is why ESP-built cars do so well when they crossover. lots of wheel/tire, dialed suspension and weight loss are the keys. driving the wheels off the car like james and ryan helps too

... fwiw, i was never more competitive than when i was double-dipping in CAM and ESP. my car was a daily driver until last year, too. don't let my hunger for power skew your perspective on the class, i'm not a smart man ;)

 

[TeeLew]

Maybe I'll do some double dipping myself. I like to build a car to a rules package and see how to optimize things, which is why I like the idea of STU. With CAM it seems like that could be a never ending project, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Dana Pants]

Maybe I'll do some double dipping myself. I like to build a car to a rules package and see how to optimize things, which is why I like the idea of STU. With CAM it seems like that could be a never ending project, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

STU is srs bznz and the Mustang is historically less competitive there due to size and weight vs max tire size. CAM is basically big wheels, big tires, coil overs, learn to drive and hope for the best.

actual CAM times are usually not faster than a BS track pony with a good driver...although I haven’t followed National events this year and could be wrong.

 

[kz]

STU is srs bznz and the Mustang is historically less competitive there due to size and weight vs max tire size. CAM is basically big wheels, big tires, coil overs, learn to drive and hope for the best.

actual CAM times are usually not faster than a BS track pony with a good driver...although I haven’t followed National events this year and could be wrong.

One thing I'd say though - even with mild mods, car is waaaay more fun to drive than in FS trim. It seems to be way undersprung stock - I got to watch them on course on couple of events since I am not running FS anymore and looked miserable body roll-wise compared to M3 (not trying to start another discussion about M3 vs. S550 in FS, but....).

 

[Dana Pants]

One thing I'd say though - even with mild mods, car is waaaay more fun to drive than in FS trim. It seems to be way undersprung stock - I got to watch them on course on couple of events since I am not running FS anymore and looked miserable body roll-wise compared to M3 (not trying to start another discussion about M3 vs. S550 in FS, but....).

All you say is true. Maybe you should write the SEB a letter with your observations about how rolly-polly the S550 GT is.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Maybe I'll do some double dipping myself. I like to build a car to a rules package and see how to optimize things, which is why I like the idea of STU. With CAM it seems like that could be a never ending project, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The tire limitations in STU make the Mustang not very competitive against the other cars in the class. Its also not a good fit for what most casual owners tend to throw on their car (like subframe braces).

CAM usually attracts a wider group of competitors which is where it becomes fun. More people to compete with (at local events) is a big attraction for me.

Don't worry about trying to build out a car fully for the class. Since we're operating at lower speeds in an autox, you'll often be limited by your ability to put stock power to the ground. Adding power would help on faster courses, but you many only have one or two spots where you can actually go full throttle with full traction at a local event. The beauty of CAM is you can pretty much do the mods you want for the car, make yourself happy with your creation, and not worry too much about the rules. Want a twin turbo putting down monster power? Go for it. Want a daily drivable car with mods for HPDE? Go for it.

It will take you a few years of regular competition to get good enough to challenge the best in your area, so don't worry about maxing out the build at first. The driver is the limiting factor. I compete against a couple of Optima Ultimate street car builds, and they're monsters of grip and horsepower. My car only has medium suspension mods and cheaper sport shocks, but I beat those guys every time because the sport is more about what the driver is doing than what the car can do.

 

[TeeLew]

It will take you a few years of regular competition to get good enough to challenge the best in your area, so don't worry about maxing out the build at first. The driver is the limiting factor. I compete against a couple of Optima Ultimate street car builds, and they're monsters of grip and horsepower. My car only has medium suspension mods and cheaper sport shocks, but I beat those guys every time because the sport is more about what the driver is doing than what the car can do.

I do understand your point. I'm new to this car, but not racing or competition in general. I haven't driven autocross in a long time, so I will need practice, but I don't have the normal learning curve of someone coming into this cold.

 

[NightmareMoon]

I do understand your point. I'm new to this car, but not racing or competition in general. I haven't driven autocross in a long time, so I will need practice, but I don't have the normal learning curve of someone coming into this cold.

Well that's good.

The hard part about CAMC for me is finding where to drop 400 lbs to get down to the 3300lbs weight limit, considering it still needs some sort of interior to meet the rules. Vorshlag's recent LS1 swap was down at that line, but not much car left on the inside.

 

[boardkat]

Yeah. And keep it a streetable/DD-able car. I don't see less than 3500 without costly measures.

FWIW, I had my car sub-3400 with full interior before going FI and adding all the cooling/safety. The path to lose the last 100lbs in the right places was mapped, but not easy/cheap. Much easier to just get a 2.0T Camaro, do some weight reduction and end up with better than 50/50 to ballastbup to minimum :(

 

[kz]

FWIW, I had my car sub-3400 with full interior before going FI and adding all the cooling/safety. The path to lose the last 100lbs in the right places was mapped, but not easy/cheap. Much easier to just get a 2.0T Camaro, do some weight reduction and end up with better than 50/50 to ballastbup to minimum :(

Stock 1/LE Camaro in Bristol with probably more fuel than it should (I think owner was worried he won't make weight) weighed at 3333 lb in Bristol - I have a pic of scales log for CAM classes....

 

[boardkat]

What were the big chunks?

Over and above the significant weight reduction I’d already done: cut out strut towers and go tubular SLA, CF roof, CF trunk lid, tubular rear subframe, monoblock calipers, gut dash, relocate radiator to trunk. This would get me sub-3300 to hopefully ballast up to min at/near 50/50.

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