HPDE - Harnesses

[moby4dick]

Hopefully this will help some who are still learning:

When it comes to safety equipment, it's all or nothing.
Factory 3pt belt plus airbags work in a crash because the 3pt belt allows your body to move forward and rotate. Then the airbag comes in and decelerates your body and keeps you in a mostly upright position.
Same with a roll over - the roof collapses but the factory seat is designed to break away, allowing your body to lay flat, avoiding injury.
Manufacturers and the NHTSA know what they're doing.

In a race car, the fixed back seat is designed to not move or break in a crash, the belts keep your body glued to the seat, the HANS keeps your neck from snapping in a front-end crash, and the roll bar/cage prevents the roof from collapsing and killing you.

Novices tend to pieces some of these together but ignore the whole picture.
Typical incomplete setups forget the HANS or the roll bar.

A crash with harnesses but without a HANS means your body is glued to the seat but your head is free to move. So in a front-end crash, your body stops moving but your head keeps going forward = your neck snaps and you die.

A roll over crash with fixed seats + harnesses but without a roll bar or cage means the roof collapses but your body cannot get out of the way. Your head and neck now become the highest point in the car = again, you die.

I know, safety equipment is expensive, but how much is your life worth to you?


The Schroth Quik Fit works like a 4pt to keep you in place while driving, yet breaks away in a crash, allowing your body to rotate like a standard 3pt.
Most if not all organizations allow these

I’m happy to see my post has generated so much interest and great responses. Ewheels, great explanation, I knew most of your response but was unaware that the factory seats were designed that way.

The quick fit pro was good for a couple seasons for me. I find it kinda odd that an organization requires a novice driver to run a dedicated harness.

Try looking up your area on Track Night in America. We are very novice oriented. https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/events

I have also seen several shelby guys get holes cut into their seats and it looks professional.

I've seen and know of several guys that remove their seats for track days too.

In my case I run a set of Sparco QRT-C seats but kept the OEM seat belt and use it for when I drive on the street.

Good luck OP and enjoy your track days!

Looks like there‘s something April 22 Pocono’s, may be a little too soon but will see. Question for you — how are you running your Sparco’s with the stock seat belt?

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[SVO MkII]

As a beginner, I would suggest getting a Simpson-Hybrid first. Arguably the single best thing you can do from a safety standpoint (and compatible with stock belts or full racing harnesses). I've been doing HPDE for over 25 yrs, last 5-6 as an instructor. I will not go on track without some form of head and neck restraint. After you get a bit more experience, then consider the Schroth Quick Fit harness. It will hold you in place pretty well. I would avoid fixed back racing seats and 5/6 point harnesses until you decide to make this a dedicated track car. I went this route with a 911 and 944T. Not fun for street use.

 

[themik99]

As a beginner, I would suggest getting a Simpson-Hybrid first. Arguably the single best thing you can do from a safety standpoint (and compatible with stock belts or full racing harnesses). I've been doing HPDE for over 25 yrs, last 5-6 as an instructor. I will not go on track without some form of head and neck restraint. After you get a bit more experience, then consider the Schroth Quick Fit harness. It will hold you in place pretty well. I would avoid fixed back racing seats and 5/6 point harnesses until you decide to make this a dedicated track car. I went this route with a 911 and 944T. Not fun for street use.

This is exactly what I did. Simpson Hybrid S first, then Schroth Quick Fit Pro.

 

[tosha]

As a beginner, I would suggest getting a Simpson-Hybrid first. Arguably the single best thing you can do from a safety standpoint (and compatible with stock belts or full racing harnesses). I've been doing HPDE for over 25 yrs, last 5-6 as an instructor. I will not go on track without some form of head and neck restraint. After you get a bit more experience, then consider the Schroth Quick Fit harness. It will hold you in place pretty well. I would avoid fixed back racing seats and 5/6 point harnesses until you decide to make this a dedicated track car. I went this route with a 911 and 944T. Not fun for street use.

Not intending to question the advice, but if one would buy quick fit pro anyways, why not do it first and just get a regular HANS? Should help save some $$ and still get to the same end result, right?

 

[ZX3ST]

Not intending to question the advice, but if one would buy quick fit pro anyways, why not do it first and just get a regular HANS? Should help save some $$ and still get to the same end result, right?

Because you will find yourself in many situations which you won't be wearing a harness at a typical DE, especially at novice/intermediate level. People aren't investing thousands of dollars of safety equipment in their street car at these skill levels. Hell I'd wager close to 50% of instructors haven't even done that. The hybrid affords some protection with an OEM 3pt belt.

* Your instructor doesn't also own a HANS? You won't be using your QFP.
* You didn't purchase a passenger side harness? You won't be using your QFP.
* Your instructor isn't comfortable with the situation? Could be they don't like 4pt harnesses or that you don't have a rollbar. Doesn't matter what's right or wrong, as your instructor, they get the final call. You won't be using your QFP.
* Riding in someone else's car? Very likely they don't have harnesses. (so no way to use your non-hybrid HANS)

I stand by my original advice. Get some seat time first, and decide if you're even going to continue doing this. You may find you don't like it. You won't be doing anything particularly dangerous at your first few events.
EDIT: And maybe pick up a Hybrid-S if you want to dip your toes in that water. It shouldn't be too difficult to resell if you need to.

Perspective - This is a $3000+ proposition to get started, if one does the install themselves.
2 x Quick Fit Pro @ $400ea
1 x HANS @ variable, typically $300-500. Hybrid-S goes for roughly 1000.
1 x Roll bar @ $1500
1 x Rear seat delete @ variable, could be $200-1000 depending what you want (or $0 if you're cutting up your OEM R delete panel, or just running bare metal)

All to hit your first HPDE, and (potentially) not even be able to use any of it.

 

[moby4dick]

OP Here — (2) Q’s — can a Quick Fit work with a roll bar or does it interfere with mounting the belts, and, re the Hybrid S, if no safety equipment other than stock 3 point belt, if you have one instructor does not, are you allowed to use the Hybrid S? I know for NASA driver and instructor must have the same equipment. Wondering at that point considered personal gear vs part of the car. Meaning it’d be $2K just to use the Hybrid S.

 

[SVO MkII]

OP Here — (2) Q’s — can a Quick Fit work with a roll bar or does it interfere with mounting the belts, and, re the Hybrid S, if no safety equipment other than stock 3 point belt, if you have one instructor does not, are you allowed to use the Hybrid S? I know for NASA driver and instructor must have the same equipment. Wondering at that point considered personal gear vs part of the car. Meaning it’d be $2K just to use the Hybrid S.

I think it would be fine, assuming you do not alter the installation of the QF due to the roll bar install (it is designed for a very specific installation). IMHO, a roll bar is not necessary in a dual purpose (street/track) car. The roll bar may also interfere with the factory safety/air bag system.

Regarding, the "equal protection" requirement that some clubs require. Obviously, check with that club, but I would be 99% certain that this applies to the vehicle. When I ride with a student, I am wearing my Simpson-Hybrid, and the student (most likely) is not. Which also speaks to the point that ZX3ST made. If you have the S-Hybrid, it is ALWAYS providing safety for you regardless of what vehicle you're in, and whether you are a driver or a passenger.

 

[WCRookie99]

Respectfully too, I mostly disagree with you
I have been racing for over 30 years and have owned and run for close to 20 years a open track and race club in California so I do have some knowledge on the subject
The only part that I agree with you and that for a complete beginner, a stock car is more than sufficient.
First step is not about speed but rather about learning the lines, braking points, etc
Once you have a few track days under your belt, a racing seat and harness become almost mandatory if you want to drive well
Regarding lap times:
In my experience a racing seat and harness is only second to tires as far that improvement is concerned
May I ask you what your track experience is and which Series did your friend race with ?
I will add that since G forces are directly related to speed, a “slowish” driver may not feel the need for a racing seat and harness

Fighting with everyone? Need to be right? Dude (LUC) relax.

 

[2morrow]

HPDE is a slippery slope that gets more and more expensive the further you slide down it. Once you reach a certain point of driving skill, speed and a desire for safety, you really just need to bite the bullet and accept that your car is now a dedicated track weapon that must be towed to the track, never to drive on the street again. Swapping back and forth between track and street legal can just be a royal PITA, and if you do enough events a year, unmanageable.

***This is the most truth ever written on this forum lol.

Thanks for posting and glad you came out of those 3 incidents ok.

 

[2morrow]

Question for you — how are you running your Sparco’s with the stock seat belt?

The base can accept your OEM seat belt. I only use the stock seat belt on the street (never use a harness without a HANS) but let me explain further.

You'll need to modify your base by drilling a small hole for the seat belt receiver registration tab to work with the base. Simply drill a small hole and bolt on your receiver.

Pro Tip: Get some of the OEM buckle extensions from your dealership. The 'Gubment dictates that you have to give them to customers for free because fat people. Simply cut off the strap.

Put buckle in receiver to make the car shut up when using your car on track.

 

[Deadly0ne]

This thread has been very informative, but being a newbie myself, I'm a bit confused. I was also considering purchasing the Schroth QuickFit & QuickFit Pro for HPDE events, primarily to help keep me in place and not have to support and brace myself with my legs or hands on the wheel during events, with the added benefit of increasing "safety".

So, let me see if I have this right (someone please correct me where I am wrong):

1) A full harness setup is designed to be utilized with a roll bar, fixed back seat, and a HANS/Neck restraint. Utilization of of a full harness in a more "street" setup without the other accompanying components does not increase your safety, but decreases it. Due to this, some instructors would probably not be comfortable (subjective) with utilizing any harness without also having some type of head and neck restraint as well.

2) The Schroth QuickFit/Pro are designed to work with a HANS device and are more convenient than that of a more dedicated setup, but in the case of an accident, designed to rip in such a fashion as to act more akin to a three-point harness. This confuses me as to how it is also useful for people that want to use them in conjunction with HANS devices (or should they not?).

3) The Schroth "anti-submarining technology" is its ability to rip and allow the body to turn, which they claim prevents submarining in the seat without the additional belt.

 

[shogun32]

think of it along the lines of

if non-ASM harness; then
    HANS required
else
    HANS suggested
endif
AND
If have roll-cage; then
    if non-ASM harness; then
        any seat you want, including fixed back
    else
        ONLY approved/factory seats
    endif
else
    ONLY approved/factory seats that ALSO pancake
    NO harness bar allowed (prevents seat pancake)
endif

HANS + Schroth ASM adds a layer of neck protection control that would otherwise be "handled" by the air-bags going off and arresting your body motion.

 

[ChipG]

I also added anti-sub straps to my Schroth QuickFit Pro.

 

[Biggsy]

Just an FYI, HMS states:
Please note: These harnesses are designed to be used in stock seats that have passed a seat back strength test. Quick Fit harnesses are not approved for use with any fixed back or aftermarket seats with the following exceptions: The Cobra Nogaro and Recaro Pole Position ABE are approved for use with QuickFIt harnesses in already approved vehicles.


Both those seats don't even fit me so not worth purchasing over a roll bar and OMP seat.

https://www.hmsmotorsport.com/item/schroth-quickfit-pro/tuning-Harnesses

 

[themik99]

This thread has been very informative, but being a newbie myself, I'm a bit confused. I was also considering purchasing the Schroth QuickFit & QuickFit Pro for HPDE events, primarily to help keep me in place and not have to support and brace myself with my legs or hands on the wheel during events, with the added benefit of increasing "safety".

So, let me see if I have this right (someone please correct me where I am wrong):

1) A full harness setup is designed to be utilized with a roll bar, fixed back seat, and a HANS/Neck restraint. Utilization of of a full harness in a more "street" setup without the other accompanying components does not increase your safety, but decreases it. Due to this, some instructors would probably not be comfortable (subjective) with utilizing any harness without also having some type of head and neck restraint as well.

2) The Schroth QuickFit/Pro are designed to work with a HANS device and are more convenient than that of a more dedicated setup, but in the case of an accident, designed to rip in such a fashion as to act more akin to a three-point harness. This confuses me as to how it is also useful for people that want to use them in conjunction with HANS devices (or should they not?).

3) The Schroth "anti-submarining technology" is its ability to rip and allow the body to turn, which they claim prevents submarining in the seat without the additional belt.

Just one clarification beyond what everyone else said: only the QuickFit Pro is compatible with a HANS device; the "normal" Quick Fit is not.

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