GM Engineer about the 350 fpc.

[stanglife]

You've not read @honeybadger GT350 build thread? It's worth the reading if you have time.

Also note, with that kind of racing stress, engine life is usually measured in hours regardless of if it's FPF or CPC.

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[honeybadger]

Are we giving too much weight to Honey Badger's N of 1? He, we all can agree, is an outlier regarding intensity, mods, pushing the car. His experience is great, and I love his posts, but I'm not sure we can make broad statements about the voodoo in general from his ownership.

Are more casual track use owners running into similar problems? Are there patterns developing?

I'm not a track guy, so I'm OK with the compromises they had to make for the uniqueness, the sound, the power of the GT350. If I were tracking the car, and honeybadger's engine woes were generalizable based on other similar stories, then I would likely be more frustrated with the compromises made.

I will say this - about 40% of the GT350s I've seen/met the owners of have had a motor replaced. This of course is skewed by me being more likely to meet them at the race track, but not all track their car.

Personal opinion here - the Voodoo is a deeply flawed motor. Is it ultra delicate? Nah. But is it more trouble than a CPC-variant? 100%.

My own assessment is its a combination of bad parts (or QA rather) and vibrations. Ford has clearly had issues with cylinders/piston rings, dropping valves, oil pump gears, chain tensioners, etc. Those clearly haven't helped things - but I saw otherwise perfectly healthy engines that didn't consume any oil go boom - typically from a spun bearing. My own motor broke two oil pickup tube mounts, vibrated a main stud out, cracked the crank snout, and more. It's clearly a complex scenario and there isn't one thing to blame. But what's clear is that the Voodoo is a flawed design that comes with higher risk than a Coyote. Does that mean its trash? nah.

But would I race one? Nope.

 

[Red65]

I will say this - about 40% of the GT350s I've seen/met the owners of have had a motor replaced. This of course is skewed by me being more likely to meet them at the race track, but not all track their car.

Personal opinion here - the Voodoo is a deeply flawed motor. Is it ultra delicate? Nah. But is it more trouble than a CPC-variant? 100%.

My own assessment is its a combination of bad parts (or QA rather) and vibrations. Ford has clearly had issues with cylinders/piston rings, dropping valves, oil pump gears, chain tensioners, etc. Those clearly haven't helped things - but I saw otherwise perfectly healthy engines that didn't consume any oil go boom - typically from a spun bearing. My own motor broke two oil pickup tube mounts, vibrated a main stud out, cracked the crank snout, and more. It's clearly a complex scenario and there isn't one thing to blame. But what's clear is that the Voodoo is a flawed design that comes with higher risk than a Coyote. Does that mean its trash? nah.

But would I race one? Nope.

I think even street driven GT350's have their own share of problems that are not necessarily shared with those that mostly see track time. I want to say I recall people complaining about some of the piston rattle the 5.2's had when they first released as a result of running forged pistons with a little more PTW clearance by design that your normal coyote with hypers. I've seen pictures a while back from a torn down 5.2 that was almost exclusively on the street, and it had a ton of skirt wear for the mileage. Granted, it can be somewhat avoidable letting the engine warm up a bit before romping on the street, but it's potentially something to be less of an issue on the track due to the engine naturally staying within a proper heat range most of the day.

This is all speculation though. No controlled testing or proof to connect the results.

 

[svttim]

I hope this is sarcasm. The voodoo is cool but there's a reason that even the GT4 car doesn't use the FPC. Even with the relatively low percentage of GT350 owners compared to GT owners, the failure rate of 5.2 voodoo far exceeds that of the normal coyote. That is saying something considering the 1st gen coyote's first adoption woes and the weaker rods it has.

Fixed for you. Do you know the failure rate? And how do you define FAR. Then there is Gen 1 vs Gen 2

 

[Red65]

Fixed for you. Do you know the failure rate? And how do you define FAR. Then there is Gen 1 vs Gen 2

Not arguing semantics. Yes, it's a generalized statement because I'm not going to conduct a study with a high N to satisfy a forum post. The information on failures is documented on forums and as honeybadger stated, personal experience shows there's obviously flaws that are more noticeable than the coyote. If ~40% of the coyotes on tracks were being replaced after low track hours, you couldn't miss it even if you tried. 5.2's tend to fly under the radar just because of low market share

 

[ice445]

It’s a bespoke engine. Ford purposefully built it to be a status symbol. It is one of a kind and will most likely never be replicated.

I consider the engine to be a failure at its intended purpose and perfect success from a marketing and branding standpoint. The amount of publicity these cars were given was pretty spectacular.

That said I seriously doubt for will ever dabble in the 180s ever again.

What was the intended purpose in your eyes? The cars were marketed as track capable, but I would argue the intended purpose was to be a fun street car motor that was satisfying and full of character. Hard to argue it failed at that. Track wise, they do well on track because they have good power to weight and good driving dynamics, but I would agree they aren't going to be a great option for track rats who go all the time.

 

[Hack]

I keep hearing the budget constraints Ford had with the GT350 engine. Makes complete sense they would do that for a very limited production vehicle. GM has probably already sold more C8’s the last couple of years than Ford sold from ‘15 to ‘20 for the GT350/R.
Who’s going to be the first to put a C8 Z06 motor in a GT350

I would put the Z06 motor in a regular GT, but I wouldn't ruin a GT350 with one. It would be best if GM would just put it into a decent car with a manual transmission. Then I will be in line for that car.

I hope this is sarcasm. The voodoo is cool but there's a reason that even the GT4 car doesn't use the FPC. Even with the relatively low percentage of GT350 owners compared to GT owners, the failure rate of 5.2 voodoo far exceeds that of the normal coyote. That is saying something considering the 1st gen coyote's first adoption woes and the weaker rods it has.

GT4 cars don't use the Voodoo because unrestricted they would win every race. Even the Coyote runs with restrictors. So there's no need for the extra power. Yes the Voodoo takes more maintenance, but with no restriction it would also win every race against a car with the Coyote or some other lesser V8.

Yea the 4 valve 4.6's were awesome for their time. I'd assume (or hope) he was just talking about the 2 valves, lol.

AFAIK the 4 valve 4.6 made good 6 cylinder power but couldn't keep up with any decent V8.

It started when he didn't read what I wrote. I was referring to the SOUND of the modular vs the coyote. When Ford went back to a flathead firing order, it ruined the magical V8 sound everyone had grown so fond of from the 302 pushrod all the way through the 4.6 DOHC. The flathead order sounds very trashy and unrefined (like an old pickup truck with straight pipes).

Obviously the coyote with VVT, plasma cylinders, aluminum blocks, outperforms the modular in nearly every aspect. But as far as sound goes, there isn't a coyote (or variants) on the planet that sounds as good as the 4.6 DOHC with a good exhaust system.

I realized you said sound, but IMO I don't care what sound a boat anchor makes as it sinks towards the bottom. The 4.6 needed boost to make any kind of decent power. Can you tell I'm still bitter that Ford never tried to make the 4.6 a good performance engine? It should have made at least 350 HP from day one as a 2 valve or Ford should have started with the 4 valve initially for Mustangs, but knowing there was no competition, Ford pinched those pennies so hard that they squealed.

 

[DopamineQuest]

AFAIK the 4 valve 4.6 made good 6 cylinder power but couldn't keep up with any decent V8.

This is just simply false lol. The only 6 cylinders that made power like this were in Porsches or twin turbo Supras and 3000GT VR4s.

The 2001 Cobra had 320 hp, the 2001 Camaro SS had 325 HP out of 1.1 more Liters. Cobras vs SS's came down to the driver in my first hand experience of witnessing multiple races between these cars.

The 4V 4.6 was a hell of a motor, not sure where you're getting your information.

 

[Deadly0ne]

I will say this - about 40% of the GT350s I've seen/met the owners of have had a motor replaced. This of course is skewed by me being more likely to meet them at the race track, but not all track their car.

Personal opinion here - the Voodoo is a deeply flawed motor. Is it ultra delicate? Nah. But is it more trouble than a CPC-variant? 100%.

My own assessment is its a combination of bad parts (or QA rather) and vibrations. Ford has clearly had issues with cylinders/piston rings, dropping valves, oil pump gears, chain tensioners, etc. Those clearly haven't helped things - but I saw otherwise perfectly healthy engines that didn't consume any oil go boom - typically from a spun bearing. My own motor broke two oil pickup tube mounts, vibrated a main stud out, cracked the crank snout, and more. It's clearly a complex scenario and there isn't one thing to blame. But what's clear is that the Voodoo is a flawed design that comes with higher risk than a Coyote. Does that mean its trash? nah.

But would I race one? Nope.

based on your quite extensive familiarity with the 350 and the fpc, are there any changes or mods that you would or would not suggest an owner due to help longevity or stave off critical failures?

 

[Red65]

GT4 cars don't use the Voodoo because unrestricted they would win every race. Even the Coyote runs with restrictors. So there's no need for the extra power. Yes the Voodoo takes more maintenance, but with no restriction it would also win every race against a car with the Coyote or some other lesser V8.

The GT4 uses the 5.2 Aluminator which Ford Performance states makes 580 hp. It is restricted down to 450 hp for the class if I recall correctly. Both the Voodoo and the Aluminator make far more than the class restriction, so the voodoo’s unnecessary extra power is not the reason why they don’t use it.

 

[stanglife]

I think even street driven GT350's have their own share of problems that are not necessarily shared with those that mostly see track time. I want to say I recall people complaining about some of the piston rattle the 5.2's had when they first released as a result of running forged pistons with a little more PTW clearance by design that your normal coyote with hypers. I've seen pictures a while back from a torn down 5.2 that was almost exclusively on the street, and it had a ton of skirt wear for the mileage. Granted, it can be somewhat avoidable letting the engine warm up a bit before romping on the street, but it's potentially something to be less of an issue on the track due to the engine naturally staying within a proper heat range most of the day.

This is all speculation though. No controlled testing or proof to connect the results.

At least you concluded with the fact that it was speculation. FYI, every forged piston in the 4V platform has some degree of piston slap (think Boss 302..).

 

[stanglife]

You guys are so funny (some of you guys ). I've never known really anyone with a 500hp anything, attending too many track events without finding a weak point in their cars from very high comsumable costs all the way to component failure. It's really hard on a car. A lot of guys get by with fluids and pads for a while (on many platforms) but the clock is ticking on those CV boots, diffs, wheel bearings, coolant systems and engine bearings (lots more). Point is, these are pretty robust to do what they do but anything can and will fail after a certain amount of track abuse.

Wasn't this about GM CPCs? lol - another thread down to non GT350 owners telling everyone how unreliable they are, ;)

 

[AvalancheSVT]

AFAIK the 4 valve 4.6 made good 6 cylinder power but couldn't keep up with any decent V8.

this statement is so wrong i have to wonder if you're trolling.

my cobra was fast as hell and maybe faster than my new PP1 GT.
easily a 12 second car. its power hit like a sledgehammer vs the coyote building gradually to redline.

 

[stanglife]

Having owned (still own) 4.6 4v cars and built numerous 4.6 and coyotes.. I can tell you that the 4v 4.6 is a "cool" engine but it is no way...and I mean NO WAY any competition for a coyote.

 

[DroopyGT350]

The GT4 uses the 5.2 Aluminator which Ford Performance states makes 580 hp. It is restricted down to 450 hp for the class if I recall correctly. Both the Voodoo and the Aluminator make far more than the class restriction, so the voodoo’s unnecessary extra power is not the reason why they don’t use it.

One of the GT4 racers had stated (Can’t remember where but I remember the question came up before) it was simply because with both motors HP restricted, the CPC motor made noticeably more useable torque below 3500rpms, with similar torque above 3500, making corner exits faster in the CPC motors. Limiting to 450hp kind of handicaps the voodoo more comparatively. I love my voodoo, but she’s gotta be rolling above 3500rpms to get around with any urgency.

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