GM Engineer about the 350 fpc.

[dtheo]

Are there companies that have built any reinforcing parts for the FPC motor? Maybe that is the answer if one were to constantly put the engine through endurance season of road-course team?

All good points from the group, personally I like the bastard engine, looking back in time folks will say it was unconventional.

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[Strokerswild]

this is what i'd put my money on. ferrari doesn't make FPC V8's this big for a reason and they make more of em than anyone.

Not to mention, Ferrari has no problem making bespoke engines engineered to the Nth degree.

 

[WItoTX]

Are there companies that have built any reinforcing parts for the FPC motor? Maybe that is the answer if one were to constantly put the engine through endurance season of road-course team?

All good points from the group, personally I like the bastard engine, looking back in time folks will say it was unconventional.

You've not read @honeybadger GT350 build thread? It's worth the reading if you have time.

 

[Angrey]

I think the thread took a weird turn, I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I love my car. I understand that in the real world, there are multiple competing realities that set in before a final product (of anything) gets fielded.

I was simply pointing out that you can't compare the FPC Ford chose to a "typical" FPC because it's not, it's an FPC with concessions. We could debate about the sensibility or justification of those concessions and modifications, but the comparison between what Ferrari fields, vs what Ford did vs. what GM is fielding isn't apples/apples from a number of standpoints.

All I was trying to point out is the Voodoo isn't a true/typical FPC.

As far as the implications of that, Honey Badger's build thread is probably the best data points we'll find for a true, dedicated track rat car that sees 50+ hours of racing a year. From broken oil pickup tubes, to the endlessly discussed debate about oil filter types, etc, there are many fallout aspects of the harsh NVH created by secondary imbalance (and such a relatively LARGE displacement).

 

[AvalancheSVT]

i would love to see the voodoo with a billet 289 cube block a la the original. i wonder how much downsizing the pistons and rods would decrease all of these problems while also making it more rev happy.

 

[Red65]

Them's fighting words! I would say the Voodoo is by far the best engine Ford has made since the 70s.

I hope this is sarcasm. The voodoo is cool but there's a reason that even the GT4 car doesn't use the FPC. Even with the relatively low percentage of GT350 owners compared to GT owners, the failure rate of 5.2 voodoo far exceeds that of the normal coyote. That is saying something considering the 1st gen coyote's first adoption woes and the weaker rods it has.

 

[Angrey]

i would love to see the voodoo with a billet 289 cube block a la the original. i wonder how much downsizing the pistons and rods would decrease all of these problems while also making it more rev happy.

I'd be happier living with crazy NVH if the crank shaft wasn't weighted and the car could rev to 9k+ (ala what GM is doing).

I don't think many people have complaints about racecar life. A little or even a lot of unrefinement comes with the territory. What doesn't make sense, is dealing with racecar probz with little or no benefit. That's the ENTIRE point of my rant.

Squealing brakes? Racecar life. High performance iron brakes squeal. What would be a kick in the nuts is if Ford gave us high dust, high squeal brakes, but they didn't perform any better than the low dust/noise free brake pads. Everyone would say "WTF man? Why bother with the drawbacks and no benefits?"

 

[Kachøw]

GM can piss on the GT350 all they want. The Voodoo might be way less reliable, but it's also the best sounding engine you can get short of 6 figures.

The Z06 engine sounds incredible, but that costs 100k+ now. The days of an affordable Corvette are kind of over.

 

[460Fred]

The days of an affordable Corvette are kind of over.

Funny how GM originally marketed the C8 as such a cheap super car when it was introduced. Really focused on the <60K base sticker. That didn’t last long.
As far as “super cars” are concerned, the Z06 is still cheap. Mark ups, GM has no control over. After all the market always dictates the prices. If everyone thought like me and refused to pay stupid mark ups, the problem wouldn’t exist.

 

[MNGT350]

I'd be happier living with crazy NVH if the crank shaft wasn't weighted and the car could rev to 9k+ (ala what GM is doing).

I don't think many people have complaints about racecar life. A little or even a lot of unrefinement comes with the territory. What doesn't make sense, is dealing with racecar probz with little or no benefit. That's the ENTIRE point of my rant.

Squealing brakes? Racecar life. High performance iron brakes squeal. What would be a kick in the nuts is if Ford gave us high dust, high squeal brakes, but they didn't perform any better than the low dust/noise free brake pads. Everyone would say "WTF man? Why bother with the drawbacks and no benefits?"

Are we giving too much weight to Honey Badger's N of 1? He, we all can agree, is an outlier regarding intensity, mods, pushing the car. His experience is great, and I love his posts, but I'm not sure we can make broad statements about the voodoo in general from his ownership.

Are more casual track use owners running into similar problems? Are there patterns developing?

I'm not a track guy, so I'm OK with the compromises they had to make for the uniqueness, the sound, the power of the GT350. If I were tracking the car, and honeybadger's engine woes were generalizable based on other similar stories, then I would likely be more frustrated with the compromises made.

 

[Angrey]

Are we giving too much weight to Honey Badger's N of 1? He, we all can agree, is an outlier regarding intensity, mods, pushing the car. His experience is great, and I love his posts, but I'm not sure we can make broad statements about the voodoo in general from his ownership.

Are more casual track use owners running into similar problems? Are there patterns developing?

I'm not a track guy, so I'm OK with the compromises they had to make for the uniqueness, the sound, the power of the GT350. If I were tracking the car, and honeybadger's engine woes were generalizable based on other similar stories, then I would likely be more frustrated with the compromises made.

Fair point. I'm not trying to make inductions, but it's not out of bounds to say the secondary NVH is problematic. I won't fault Ford for 12:1 with no DI to combat knock, as it's not their fault that fuel consistency with 93 is unreliable at best and knowingly bad at worst. I think that's easily solvable (for most) with E85.

Interestingly, that's why I think a high compression GM FPC will eventually be an albatross around their neck as well. High performance pistons means non-hypereutectic which means oil consumption issues (just like the voodoo). 12.5:1 compression means one bad gulp of fuel and it's knock city. Who knows, maybe they can put some form of "octane" sensor or nanny feature in them to recognize when the motor is seeing knock/retard under typical conditions that warns the driver before they flog it.

 

[KB_210]

A snippet from the first link that made me laugh a bit:

"i fully expect the corvette Z06 motor to be trouble free. GM has the most advanced engineering team in the indistry and that includes ferrari and porsche

I think those that decide to modify the new z06 motor with forced induction will be disappointed as the engineers at GM did not plan for that specific powerplant to be forced induction.

there is a reason GM durability is world class and its because they have a 300k mile durability process that is best in the industry.

one of the reasons I love GM prodicts is their research and development process.

GM management sets the goals and parameters and the engineers make it happen. "

 

[DopamineQuest]

my cobra was badass, dude, idunno what you're talkin about lol

Yea the 4 valve 4.6's were awesome for their time. I'd assume (or hope) he was just talking about the 2 valves, lol.

 

[Angrey]

Yea the 4 valve 4.6's were awesome for their time. I'd assume (or hope) he was just talking about the 2 valves, lol.

It started when he didn't read what I wrote. I was referring to the SOUND of the modular vs the coyote. When Ford went back to a flathead firing order, it ruined the magical V8 sound everyone had grown so fond of from the 302 pushrod all the way through the 4.6 DOHC. The flathead order sounds very trashy and unrefined (like an old pickup truck with straight pipes).

Obviously the coyote with VVT, plasma cylinders, aluminum blocks, outperforms the modular in nearly every aspect. But as far as sound goes, there isn't a coyote (or variants) on the planet that sounds as good as the 4.6 DOHC with a good exhaust system.

 

[AvalancheSVT]

It started when he didn't read what I wrote. I was referring to the SOUND of the modular vs the coyote. When Ford went back to a flathead firing order, it ruined the magical V8 sound everyone had grown so fond of from the 302 pushrod all the way through the 4.6 DOHC. The flathead order sounds very trashy and unrefined (like an old pickup truck with straight pipes).

Obviously the coyote with VVT, plasma cylinders, aluminum blocks, outperforms the modular in nearly every aspect. But as far as sound goes, there isn't a coyote (or variants) on the planet that sounds as good as the 4.6 DOHC with a good exhaust system.

while you are definitely on to something I think this has more to do with exhaust layout/tuning than anything. when i put sidepipes on my cobra it sounded a lot like a coyote. very raspy, tinny, and aggressive. why? because the mufflers were very close to the exits.

i added a couple magnaflows before my superturbos and got ALL my deep mellow back. that thing sounds like a proper 4.6 now. I also made more power afterwards.

before:

AFter:

I suspect this is the primary purpose of ford's suitcase resonator and their large mufflers which is why a lot of aftermarket units sound very tinny. i, too, hate most aftermarket coyote exhausts and i think it has a lot to do with big straight pipes leading to mufflers right at the end.

there's tons of great sounding coyotes these days but most of them have factory exhausts

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