Do you regret choosing your power adder?

[engineermike]

I disagree there, Efficiency varies by compressor design and speed/load. Chuck on a small pulley and although you get more boost and power, you are actually at a lower efficiency meaning a lot more power has been consumed to achieve it. Energy can't be destroyed, only transferred so where did it go? It turned in to heat.

You cant compare all the brands maximum polytropic or Adriatic efficiencies. It's not that simple, you have to keep the blower in the sweet spot to achieve those and many if not all blowers have smaller pullies on, putting them way outside the mark.

PDs make more power down low because that's their highest peak in efficiency. That's not where I want my peak. I don't want power under 4500rpm, that's only for cruising and tickover.

See my post above. We have a good map for the 2.65 and the modern whipple 3.0 is even better. They are plenty efficient at our boost levels and flows.

look at a pd Dyno Vs boost, youl see it dropping off towards the end no matter what brand, it's the flaw of that design. But if you want all out low rpm torque, that wears gearboxes/ drive train and smokes tires, itl do that for you.

Never seen this happen on a whipple 2.9 or 3.0, as someone else showed with graphs.

fit a smaller pulley and now you're really pushing the limits of usefulness, your peak is now even lower in the rev range. Although you've gained another 40whp, you are generating a shit load more heat for the intercooler/ engine to deal with in terms of a square route I imagine. Hence the requirement for crazy chiller coolers and such for PD cars. Again all added weight to the front of the car or additional parasitic loss through the crank pulley from driving the alternator and or AC compressor, a weak point on the coyote so best to not go there.

Not true. I have tons of data logs at various boost levels. The Whipple 2-pass intercooler works really well.

If you need it to work for 10 seconds only then fine, you can let it all dissipate before the next run or fill the airbox with ice or what ever but imagine doing a 12 lap race! Totally useless.

The air/air won't keep charge temps in check for the first 15 seconds, so why are you worried about what happens to water/air after 12 laps?

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[engineermike]

if a pd is the best low end, best top wnd, best thermal effecient, using the best water cooled system, and is still cheaper than turbos, why on gods green earth would anyone buy anything around 10k other than a whipple?

Not necessarily. Centrifs are easier to install, so there's that. And the VMP and Edelbrock kits are pretty good as well. It doesn't have to be a Whipple. We all know turbos have some inherent thermodynamic system efficiency advantages, so they have their place as well.

 

[engineermike]

We dont need to go to 1200 hp to know whipples heat soak and ess dont

I showed data logs that prove the opposite is true. You made claims based on your dashboard gauge.

 

[engineermike]

...If you run an a2a IC and on a full pass, peak iat is under 200, you don't make alot of power, or you are maxing out a tiny compressor.

Let that sink in for a minute....from a guy with actual data logs.

 

[Basspro302]

Yeah, maybe you should ask NASA for some rocket fuel as that seems to work well for them?

Sick burn. I’ll just have Elon bring it over in the cyber truck. Air to water is always superior in cooling. Shit a lot of modern turbo cars are going air to water. Packaging and efficiency.

 

[wingnutt]

This was true up until about 2010. I was there.

this right here…I was there too with my Kenne Bell blower and an FMU to make it all work, there are so many old tech theories (along with a wives tale or two) being tossed around in this thread that it makes my eyeballs itch. 🫠

 

[robvas]

err, mid-90's I don't think rates 'gold' unless jap turbo 4 or 6 is your bag...

The LS1 arrived in 1996!

 

[RiotfunK]

I went ESS G3 120mm on 93. Is 100+lbs lighter than most PD setups on the front of the car.
I'm happy with it. 650whp in my daily. Is fun to drive and really kicks when you need it too. Plus with the quieter gears is def a sleeper. One thing I wish I did while doing the blower was to do headers at same time. They shouldn't even install any of these on the stock cans. I figured I'd make it through the season on the stock ones. My new headers will be here tomorrow since my OEM ones are cooked. Thanks Beefcake.

 

[Forestlump]

Shit, I guess everyones been wrong the whole time then!

Who knew!

The guy from the UK that sold an almost new Whipple kit as he couldn't keep temps down for half the race let alone a whole one. Good job it was only small money! £16000 with duty, expensive mistake!

You are right about the benefits of water for cooling but what you fail to see is that you don't have endless amounts of cold water and once it's hot, your cooling is no more. You just have more thermal inertia because of waters specific heat capacity but once the delta T almost reaches parity, you have no more cooling. If you're drag racing it's fine but extended throttle demand will heat up that coolant and that's where the issue is! Its the reason those killer chiller systems exist for pds but like I said before, that's adding more parasitic drain on the crank from running the AC pump!
At the end of it you are adding more and more equipment to the front of an already overly heavy car to mask a flaw in the original design, surly anyone with a brain can see that? So avoid all those issues and don't use pd! easy solution isn't it! Chose Turbo or centri!

Temps are only half the issue with Pd, weight is another but maybe you guys are putting helium in as coolent and your logs magically show something radical!

I've spent £8500 including tune, headers and exhaust on a centri kit and guess what, air intercooler and no hot temps or pulled timing after repeated use of the throttle.

Then you've got all the expenses of supporting mods to make a Whipple work properly realistically a built motor, killer chillers and you would have spent loads more than what I have and you have something that will return slower lap times and be a dog in the corners!

But I guess none of that matters because you only know one way that works and if you aren't the same you're a lepper!

The title says "Do you regret choosing your power adder?" My answer is still the same, for my purpose the centri kits all knock pds out of the park, on many points but if I was to do it again I'd go ESS. Price for one and the design of the compressor is more efficient than Paxton/ vortech. Pro charger looks very good but the price is a bit more.

 

[Forestlump]

This thread delivers!!!

*EDIT*

Whipple is best because that's what I run!!

Thi

I didn't read all 8 pages of dribble, but Turbo's are the way if price is no object. Being able to control the boost with an electronic Boost controller and dialing in the boost per gear, changing boost pressure on the fly, and the efficiency - nothing belt driven can touch a good turbo setup- Especially when the PCM is doing the work in OEM setups, but even aftermarket control systems provide much more capability and flexibility than something with a belt just cannot do.

Why do manufacturers of high performance forced induction products go with turbos? (Sure, the GT500 exists, but it would be a better car with Turbo's and wouldn't surprise me at all if the S650 GT500 had snails if they make one). Even your economy cars and trucks are all made with turbo's these days. No one uses belt driven power adders anymore.

C8 ZR1- Turbos
Porsche 911 - Turbos
Ferrari- Turbos
BMW- Turbos
Mercedes- Turbos
Audi- Turbos
Anything Diesel - Turbos

Exactly, I know you Americans love your pd blower's and v8s but the truth is that they are old tech. Crikey, I only bought a Mustang and supercharged it because it was old fashioned and I liked the idea of competing in a retro (Ish) car.

Heavy front engined, manual, rear wheel drive with LSD, that's tech from the 70's in Europe! but in a modern car. Fact is if ford hadn't modernised the S550 suspension and ditched the solid rear axle, they wouldn't have been able to sell them in Europe full stop!

Initially I was thinking PD blower (trying to maintain the old skool idea but after looking in to it and talking to people who fitted them, I was steered away.

Yes the right way to do it is turbo but centri is cheap and works well enough and maintains the oldskool supercharged V8 muscle car thing.

 

[engineermike]

… air intercooler and no hot temps or pulled timing after repeated use of the throttle.

Nearly your entire argument is propped up by this twice-disproven false notion.

 

[Forestlump]

Nearly your entire argument is propped up by this twice-disproven false notion.

Haha, you should run for president, you'd give trump a run for his money!

"I won the argument despite the facts, they are lies!"

 

[engineermike]

"I won the argument despite the facts, they are lies!"

Are you talking about yourself here? I honestly can’t tell. I’m the one who posted data logs to prove my facts. How did you prove yours?

 

[Forestlump]

https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/explained-selecting-a-supercharger/

Book yourself on a course and then you tell them their wrong too

 

[Wolfys11]

Are you talking about yourself here? I honestly can’t tell. I’m the one who posted data logs to prove my facts. How did you prove yours?

Just because you have data doesnt mean the data is relevant, the data you gave and the other guy are a he said she said, as we have no idea the conditions of the dynos and mods to give the temps readings

just like i gave you my anectodal evidence that my setup works, you did the same

i understand your setup doesnt have the issues, and your log of an ess does, but im not convinced either dont have foul play of sorts that are necessary to know, like maybe the outside temp difference, different dyno procedures like hood up vs down, mph for pulls, bumper style and intercooler style for each setup, etc

anyone can cry wolf that a 100mm turbo sucks because they didnt put a intercooler on it and then cried heat temps

thats why i went with the largest intercooler they make for ess, to not have the issue where my boost level will cause heating issues as the cooling system isnt good enough

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