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What did you do to your S550 Mustang today?!

Bit_the_Bullitt

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That's actually terrible for the suspension. And all that weight can cause serious over-steer issues, especially in bad weather.

But......it's your car. Do as you wish.
The 240lbs was just there for about 10min drive from the store. Now I have only half, i.e. 120lbs.

That's considered a lot for the suspension to handle? It's like having a younger teenager in the back seat, except this is evenly distributed over the wheels.

I have good performance winter wheels, but I thought the rear was so light that sometimes they don't get enough traction...
Am def wanting to learn if I'm doing this wrong!
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shogun32

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but I thought the rear was so light that sometimes they don't get enough traction...
Am def wanting to learn if I'm doing this wrong!
you're not. I've thrown multiple 40+lb bags of road salt, playbox sand and doggie chow bags in the back. I'm tempted to see how the car behaves in the warm and dry (track?) with 150lbs extra back there and have 50/50 weight distribution.
 

Bit_the_Bullitt

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you're not. I've thrown multiple 40+lb bags of road salt, playbox sand and doggie chow bags in the back. I'm tempted to see how the car behaves in the warm and dry (track?) with 150lbs extra back there and have 50/50 weight distribution.
Right. I mean I realize the vehicle is not a truck and I don't intend to haul stuff for long time or long distances. It was 240lbs for ~10mi / 12min. I think it'll be fine with that.

And I am having a hard time believing 120lbs of sand that doesn't shift and roll around the truck would have that negative of an impact, but if I'm proven wrong then I'm proven wrong I suppose...
 

HoosierDaddy

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Right. I mean I realize the vehicle is not a truck and I don't intend to haul stuff for long time or long distances. It was 240lbs for ~10mi / 12min. I think it'll be fine with that.
Did you have a passenger? My '91 Sonoma 4x4 can't even haul that much. Has a 500 lb passenger + cargo limit.

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sopherland

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Right. I mean I realize the vehicle is not a truck and I don't intend to haul stuff for long time or long distances. It was 240lbs for ~10mi / 12min. I think it'll be fine with that.

And I am having a hard time believing 120lbs of sand that doesn't shift and roll around the truck would have that negative of an impact, but if I'm proven wrong then I'm proven wrong I suppose...
Look in your door jam for the sticker indicating the max weight your vehicle can hold (including yourself and any passengers) whatever is left over can be used to safely haul weight in the trunk as long as you don’t exceed it (legally speaking).
 

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shogun32

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2340lb rear limit from door sticker

3800lb car x 0.44 = 1672 sitting on axle empty
200lb driver x 0.5 = 100 on rear axle (guess)
2340-1672 - 100 = 568lb can go into the trunk and/or back seat.

I did a straight line stop from 30mph on snow-covered (white, no gray showing thru). The ABS was clattering away like mad. The front tracked straight but the rear got increasingly sideways. I don't know when we'll get our next actual snow but I think i'll throw some bricks of sand back there. I did that in my Nissan Frontier and Pontiac GrandPrix and it definitely seemed to help.
 

KingKona

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The 240lbs was just there for about 10min drive from the store. Now I have only half, i.e. 120lbs.

That's considered a lot for the suspension to handle? It's like having a younger teenager in the back seat, except this is evenly distributed over the wheels.

I have good performance winter wheels, but I thought the rear was so light that sometimes they don't get enough traction...
Am def wanting to learn if I'm doing this wrong!
240 lbs all the time will wear things in the rear suspension faster. But I get it's really 120 lbs.

Keep in mind the physics; the more weight back there, the higher the likelihood over-steer will occur, and the more severe it will be. It's a pendulum effect.

And these cars already have substantial weight over the rear wheels.

Really, the best bet for better traction is tires.

But....it's your car, and this is all just my opinions/preferences.
 

shogun32

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Keep in mind the physics; the more weight back there, the higher the likelihood over-steer will occur, and the more severe it will be. It's a pendulum effect.
you're assuming (rather bigly) that the tires are already at their lateral limits of friction and that the extra mechanical grip imparted by another 150-200lbs of weight doesn't also translate in the lateral direction. Sure if it was a big 200lb ball rolling around freely banging from side to side the shock imparted by the weight slamming into the stops might disrupt the mechanical grip and cause the rear to let go.

200 lbs extra weight is only a sag of 0.6" measured at the wheel anyway.
200/175 /2 = 0.57

But in the general case you're blowing this totally out of proportion. If I throw a fat guy into my trunk because he owes me money and we're on our way to the Bronx river to throw him to the fishes, I can't imaging I'll be driving any different on the way there than when I have some skinny low-life on his way to the same demise. :)
 
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KingKona

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you're assuming (rather bigly) that the tires are already at their lateral limits of friction and that the extra mechanical grip imparted by another 150-200lbs of weight doesn't also translate in the lateral direction. Sure if it was a big 200lb ball rolling around freely banging from side to side the shock imparted by the weight slamming into the stops might disrupt the mechanical grip and cause the rear to let go.

200 lbs extra weight is only a sag of 0.6" measured at the wheel anyway.
200/175 /2 = 0.57

But in the general case you're blowing this totally out of proportion. If I throw a fat guy into my trunk because he owes me money and we're on our way to the Bronx river to throw him to the fishes, I can't imaging I'll be driving any different on the way there than when I have some skinny low-life on his way to the same demise. :)
Let's be objective about this.

The weight WILL aid in straight-ahead traction, it will help get you going. The weight will also cause the back end to slide around more. So it's a double edged sword.

It's just physics, it can't be argued with. More weight equals more of a pendulum effect. An object in motion tends to stay in motion, and that extra weight increases the chances the back end will step out. And when it does, it will be harder to control.

We're talking about winter roads with snow and ice, where the smallest things make larger differences. So we're already talking about being at the limit of mechanical grip to the road.

From 25+ years of Michigan winter driving, it's the tires. Adding weight in the trunk is a 1/2 measure with draw-backs.

So...yes, driving back to the Machus Red Fox after depositing Hoffa in the Rouge river, on a snow & ice covered Telegraph Rd., that missing 200lbs will hurt you getting going, but help should the rear decide to swap ends with the front end. :cwl: :cwl:

ETA; call it the "Porsche 911 effect". Once that ass-end is lost, she's comin' all the way around!!!
 
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Bit_the_Bullitt

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you're assuming (rather bigly) that the tires are already at their lateral limits of friction and that the extra mechanical grip imparted by another 150-200lbs of weight doesn't also translate in the lateral direction. Sure if it was a big 200lb ball rolling around freely banging from side to side the shock imparted by the weight slamming into the stops might disrupt the mechanical grip and cause the rear to let go.

200 lbs extra weight is only a sag of 0.6" measured at the wheel anyway.
200/175 /2 = 0.57

But in the general case you're blowing this totally out of proportion. If I throw a fat guy into my trunk because he owes me money and we're on our way to the Bronx river to throw him to the fishes, I can't imaging I'll be driving any different on the way there than when I have some skinny low-life on his way to the same demise. :)
I did read that the S550 is popular with NJ mobsters as it can haul a big body in the trunk easily. :lipssealed:

Let's be objective about this.

The weight WILL aid in straight-ahead traction, it will help get you going. The weight will also cause the back end to slide around more. So it's a double edged sword.

It's just physics, it can't be argued with. More weight equals more of a pendulum effect. An object in motion tends to stay in motion, and that extra weight increases the chances the back end will step out. And when it does, it will be harder to control.

We're talking about winter roads with snow and ice, where the smallest things make larger differences. So we're already talking about being at the limit of mechanical grip to the road.

From 25+ years of Michigan winter driving, it's the tires. Adding weight in the trunk is a 1/2 measure with draw-backs.

So...yes, driving back to the Machus Red Fox after depositing Hoffa in the Rouge river, on a snow & ice covered Telegraph Rd., that missing 200lbs will hurt you getting going, but help should the rear decide to swap ends with the front end. :cwl: :cwl:

ETA; call it the "Porsche 911 effect". Once that ass-end is lost, she's comin' all the way around!!!
Holy s*it did I start a storm here didn't I....

First off, I have dedicated winter tires on right now. I am not trying to be stupid and improve traction of summer tires in winter.
I have Sotozzero 3 tires, which were highly rated (C&D had the 2s on their winter Bullitt and loved them), I just got the next gen of them after good reviews and recommendation of people at TireRack.
The tires are great, but there were a couple of turns they were spinning on me more than I'd like. They have a ton of thread as they've been on for only about 6,000 miles between this and last year's winter.

I simply put the bags in there for increased traction. I'm 260lbs, had 240 in the back and 30lbs on the passenger floor, so I had 530lbs in there altogether, that was a 12min drive during which it was dry and I drove like a grandpa.
Now I have the 120 in the trunk and drive by myself 90% of the time.
 
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KingKona

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Holy s*it did I start a storm here didn't I....

First off, I have dedicated winter tires on right now. I have Sotozzero 3 tires, which were highly rated (C&D had the 2s on their winter Bullitt and loved them), I just got the next gen of them after good reviews and recommendation of people at TireRack.
The tires are great, but there were a couple of turns they were spinning on me more than I'd like. They have a ton of thread as they've been on for only about 6,000 miles between this and last year's winter.

I simply put the bags in there for increased traction. I'm 260lbs, had 240 in the back and 30lbs on the passenger floor, so I had 530lbs in there altogether.
Now I have the 120 in the trunk and drive by myself 90% of the time.
Nooooo....no poop storm.

Nice to hear you've got the snow tires on. They look like you could scale the Alps with them.
 

JimC

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One other issue with the weight in the back. You realize that if you do have an accident when you hit that ditch and stop suddenly, that weight will continue momentum forward and through the back seats? Not much is going to stop 120 lbs of flying weight from coming through the seat back and aimed right at you.

I grew up in Michigan and drove through a lot of snow storms. And when I got my license RWD was the norm - 4x4 was rare and FWD even rarer (maybe the Olds Toronado and that was it). Never drove with weight in the trunk and never had a problem. I drove my 2006, with supercharger, on a commute from Port Huron to downtown Detroit daily (>50 miles each way) through some big snow and ice storms.
 

KingKona

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One other issue with the weight in the back. You realize that if you do have an accident when you hit that ditch and stop suddenly, that weight will continue momentum forward and through the back seats? Not much is going to stop 120 lbs of flying weight from coming through the seat back and aimed right at you.

I grew up in Michigan and drove through a lot of snow storms. And when I got my license RWD was the norm - 4x4 was rare and FWD even rarer (maybe the Olds Toronado and that was it). Never drove with weight in the trunk and never had a problem. I drove my 2006, with supercharger, on a commute from Port Huron to downtown Detroit daily (>50 miles each way) through some big snow and ice storms.
I remember....Michigan winters in my Honda Prelude. Finding a snow-covered, empty parking lot......and doing reverse doughnuts.
 

Bit_the_Bullitt

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One other issue with the weight in the back. You realize that if you do have an accident when you hit that ditch and stop suddenly, that weight will continue momentum forward and through the back seats? Not much is going to stop 120 lbs of flying weight from coming through the seat back and aimed right at you.

I grew up in Michigan and drove through a lot of snow storms. And when I got my license RWD was the norm - 4x4 was rare and FWD even rarer (maybe the Olds Toronado and that was it). Never drove with weight in the trunk and never had a problem. I drove my 2006, with supercharger, on a commute from Port Huron to downtown Detroit daily (>50 miles each way) through some big snow and ice storms.
Right, I realize inertia is a thing and that weight would need to come to an abrupt stop somewhere. I guess I thought that the seat latches and the anchor points mount to the same sheetmetal, so I was hoping the latch would be as strong, but that's probably not the case.

I also realized I got the AA spare, so probably good 50lbs over stock in there already. Maybe I ought to take the sand out, consensus seems to be just to trust the winter tires.
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