Sponsored

GT350 Engine Refresh - Part 2

shogun32

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Threads
89
Messages
14,606
Reaction score
12,094
Location
Northern VA
First Name
Matt
Vehicle(s)
'19 GT/PP, '23 GB Mach1, '12 Audi S5 (v8+6mt)
Vehicle Showcase
2
It's possible that the bracket was defective from the start, and it has nothing to do with vibration.
I didn't mean to imply OP was at fault on the part choice. I would surmise that the bend radius is too severe on the bracket given the material and thickness, and was already compromised (internal tearing). It would make more sense IMO to use a round rod instead of bar to make the bracket and then weld to a tab for securing with the bolt.

In order to support the oil pump end of the tube, a vertical element with a rubber foot resting against the pan floor could be fashioned and thereby impart a mechanical force to keep the pickup tube anchored in it's rubber grommet.

I'll gladly accept a residual check from FP for fixing their design. :)
Sponsored

 
OP
OP
honeybadger

honeybadger

Just don't care
Joined
Apr 20, 2016
Threads
59
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
6,205
Location
COTA
First Name
Kevin
Vehicle(s)
'17 GT350
You could measure the length of the bracket as it attaches to the tube and the block. Once you know that distance, use some math to calculate the resonance frequency. Think of it as a tuning stub in a microwave circuit. You could weld another piece of steel on top of the exposed part of the bracket to alter the frequency. But as others have said, you might pick up another one. I doubt Ford did a thorough finite element analyses of this part. Not worth their time since they say race parts are not covered by warranty
Not a bad idea. I'll keep ya'll posted on what the engineers say.

So, @honeybadger, if you could weigh that piece and tell us how long it is and the distance that each bracket is from one end or the other, someone with a calculator could bung the numbers into this calculation to see if resonance in the tube is a factor:

upload_2019-12-24_9-22-58.png
Not a bad idea. I'll get some measurements.

right, so using the 5.0 (or race car?) pickup on the Voodoo pump was a mistake to begin with...
Not a mistake in the usual sense of the word. @honeybadger said that FP advised him it would work, so he used it. It's possible that the bracket was defective from the start, and it has nothing to do with vibration. There's no way to know, but it does make sense to install a more robust part for the next 40 hours.
This is NOT the 5.0 tube. This is specifically designed for the 5.2 (the 5.0 tube won't work due to the oil pump being different). That said, my understanding is that the development was done with the CPC variant used in the FP350S.

I don't think this is as simple as it just being due to vibration. If we look closely at the ends of the metal, it's got some variation in color and sheen - we also need to consider whether or not the manufacturing method (bending brake) compromised the joint and if there was a different type of flatstock that should have been used that's stronger under the heat.

20191223_124124.jpg
20191223_124109.jpg
20191223_123924.jpg
 

pro 5.0

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Threads
10
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
429
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
2019 Mustang GT
Another option may be to use a pan out of a Gen 3 Coyote, it has the plastic pick up tube and windage tray all as 1 piece. The capacity is 10 Qts and the plastic should do a better job at absorbing the harmonics.
 

guzie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Threads
2
Messages
123
Reaction score
91
Location
Grand Rapids MI
Vehicle(s)
2018 Mustang GT350, 2019 Mustang GT
Another option may be to use a pan out of a Gen 3 Coyote, it has the plastic pick up tube and windage tray all as 1 piece. The capacity is 10 Qts and the plastic should do a better job at absorbing the harmonics.
That is what comes stock on the GT350.
 

Sponsored

foolwithtools

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Threads
7
Messages
76
Reaction score
55
Location
Ohio
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT350
Not a bad idea. I'll keep ya'll posted on what the engineers say.



Not a bad idea. I'll get some measurements.





This is NOT the 5.0 tube. This is specifically designed for the 5.2 (the 5.0 tube won't work due to the oil pump being different). That said, my understanding is that the development was done with the CPC variant used in the FP350S.

I don't think this is as simple as it just being due to vibration. If we look closely at the ends of the metal, it's got some variation in color and sheen - we also need to consider whether or not the manufacturing method (bending brake) compromised the joint and if there was a different type of flatstock that should have been used that's stronger under the heat.

20191223_124124.jpg
20191223_124109.jpg
20191223_123924.jpg
I'm no metallurgist and it's been a long time since my mechanics of materials class, so I might be wrong, but that looks like a fatigue failure. I see a dark spot which is surrounded by brightly colored metal. The dark spot I think is where the crack started and grew slowly over time. The bright parts are areas where the metal failed very quickly (when the piece snapped). Fatigue failures happen when a part is stressed cyclically over time, which is what that bracket would have gone through as a result of the vibrations from the engine as well as the loads from cornering and braking.

This is just a guess though so don't count on me being right!
 

Austinj427

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Threads
11
Messages
806
Reaction score
448
Location
CO
Vehicle(s)
2017 GT350
Vehicle Showcase
1
You should probably call Tob if you can.
 

TomcatDriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Threads
9
Messages
1,159
Reaction score
469
Location
Mojave Desert
Vehicle(s)
2017 GT350 Magnetic w/black stripes
An unrelated question, but have you considered or looked into refreshing the plasma-wire transfer bore coating at some point down the road? Does anyone do this on the VooDoo? There are several places that do it for big-rig diesel engines, and I don't see any fundamental reason why it couldn't be done.
 
OP
OP
honeybadger

honeybadger

Just don't care
Joined
Apr 20, 2016
Threads
59
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
6,205
Location
COTA
First Name
Kevin
Vehicle(s)
'17 GT350
You should probably call Tob if you can.
We've been in contact :)

An unrelated question, but have you considered or looked into refreshing the plasma-wire transfer bore coating at some point down the road? Does anyone do this on the VooDoo? There are several places that do it for big-rig diesel engines, and I don't see any fundamental reason why it couldn't be done.
The plasma-wire arc coating is a topic of wide debate on these blocks. Because you can't really reasonably hone the cylinders without re-coating them (and no one I'm aware of doing this for Coyote blocks), the only 2 options are to sleeve them and or replace. Given the Detroit tolerances (i.e. poor bore-to-bore spacing), I chose to have mine sleeved and the bores aligned down to the 0.001". She runs MUCH smoother than any OEM block ever would now. Worth every penny.

20190401_143129.jpg
 

shogun32

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Threads
89
Messages
14,606
Reaction score
12,094
Location
Northern VA
First Name
Matt
Vehicle(s)
'19 GT/PP, '23 GB Mach1, '12 Audi S5 (v8+6mt)
Vehicle Showcase
2
Given the Detroit tolerances (i.e. poor bore-to-bore spacing),
There is just zero excuse for this kind of manufacturing slop in the age of CNC. And it wasn't till "recently" someone dusted off their mechanical engineering 101 text book and relearned the topic of spring-back and started to use a torque plate properly so the bores would actually be round.
 

Sponsored

TomcatDriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Threads
9
Messages
1,159
Reaction score
469
Location
Mojave Desert
Vehicle(s)
2017 GT350 Magnetic w/black stripes
We've been in contact :)
The plasma-wire arc coating is a topic of wide debate on these blocks. Because you can't really reasonably hone the cylinders without re-coating them (and no one I'm aware of doing this for Coyote blocks), the only 2 options are to sleeve them and or replace. Given the Detroit tolerances (i.e. poor bore-to-bore spacing), I chose to have mine sleeved and the bores aligned down to the 0.001". She runs MUCH smoother than any OEM block ever would now. Worth every penny.
20190401_143129.jpg
Yea, that's all I've seen. There are a couple places that do it for big-rig engines and the process seems pretty established.
 

Darkane

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Threads
11
Messages
1,376
Reaction score
612
Location
Alberta
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT350 Base
Great thread, I love reading the technical tidbits.

I’m no expert, but I’m wondering if it’s possible the brackets were out a hair and the tube was “positioned” and tightened.

In my field of work with high pressure vessels and pipes, the alignment must be true when torquing flanges or unions to ensure stress corrosion cracking doesn’t occur.

Keep up the good fight HB.
 
OP
OP
honeybadger

honeybadger

Just don't care
Joined
Apr 20, 2016
Threads
59
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
6,205
Location
COTA
First Name
Kevin
Vehicle(s)
'17 GT350
I didn't take many pictures this phase due to how often I had fairly nasty chemicals on my hands. But essentially we had two goals. Clean off the excessive carbon/oil build up from the oil burn and install new valve seals.

As always, here's a video of some of the work. Lighter than normal text update below as well.


First up was to clean the exhaust ports and valves. The last few hours of running really was burning a lot of oil (1.5 quarts a day). So they were very caked.
20191221_200923.jpg


To clean them, I first tipped the heads on their side so the ports were facing up. I then filled each exhaust port all the way with brake clean and let sit for 24 hours. The next day I took them outside and sprayed them out with more clean. This got 85% of it out without any scrubbing. Afterwards, I re-filled again and let soak with fresh brake clean. I then lightly scrubbed with a tooth brush. This got the rest out.

20200102_135613.jpg



For the valves themselves, I removed the exhaust valves (intakes were clean) and soaked them in simple green for about 20 hours. The carbon was super soft and brushed right off afterwards (I used a brass wire wheel on my bench grinding to clean).
20191228_215503.jpg


After cleaning
20191228_215446.jpg


For the combustion chambers, I just used a brass brush on a dremel + degreaser. Not perfect, but plenty good enough.

20200102_135540.jpg


While all apart, I inspected the valve train for any signs of wear and so far it all looks fantastic. The titanium retainers are hardly showing any wear:

20191220_231330.jpg


and there's no slop in the guides, springs look great, etc. Confident in at least another season out of them.

Regarding the valve seals, they appear to be OEM. So either they were my originals re-used or something caused pre-mature wear (maybe not enough lube on first start?). Who knows. Hopefully the new ones last longer.
20200102_135638.jpg
20191220_231330.jpg
 
Last edited:

Jossyfilms

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Threads
6
Messages
58
Reaction score
15
Location
Inland empire
First Name
Jose
Vehicle(s)
2018 orange fury gt350
Sorry if I missed it but why was the engine burning so much oil at the end?
 
OP
OP
honeybadger

honeybadger

Just don't care
Joined
Apr 20, 2016
Threads
59
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
6,205
Location
COTA
First Name
Kevin
Vehicle(s)
'17 GT350
Sorry if I missed it but why was the engine burning so much oil at the end?
Bad valve seals...not sure what led to their failure TBH
Sponsored

 
 




Top