Who else is Manual or Bust?

[Norm Peterson]

Sounds like you're a low-revving, down low torque kind of guy. Go buy a manual Hellcat and never buy a GT350, S2000, Miata, E90/E46 M3, or any car you need to rev out to get into its powerband.

We are on completely different pages and will never convince each other otherwise. The GT500 appears to have a 7,500rpm redline so even if it has a manual, a Hellcat sounds like it meets your short-shifting driving style and needs.

I really wish I could get you to think in terms other than it's-either-this-or-that. You don't always need to be "in the powerband". Not on the street anyway, not even when you've picked up the pace from your normal street driving a bit.

Actually, I've owned a couple of cars with high-revving engines, as in 7500 or better (the engine I built was safe to 8000). If I wasn't actually competing in them I almost never ran them above about 5000. Didn't need to, not even with them being 2.5L and under.

I'd be perfectly happy shifting a GT, a GT350, or even a GT500 at 2500 around town, 3000 - 3500 in one or two specific stretches, and maybe another 500 rpm above that out in the country. Maybe 4500 coming out of a highway on-ramp or other merging into highway-speed traffic. But nowhere near 6500+ anywhere except on the track.

Funny thing about track driving is that it can actually reduce the "need" to be using more engine revs than necessary in your street driving. You know you can, you know what it's like when you're really trying, and you know that you aren't really trying on the street. So you don't put any pressure on yourself to play some junior/wanna-be version of your track time.


Norm

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[d1zguy]

I really wish I could get you to think in terms other than it's-either-this-or-that. You don't always need to be "in the powerband". Not on the street anyway, not even when you've picked up the pace from your normal street driving a bit.

Actually, I've owned a couple of cars with high-revving engines, as in 7500 or better (the engine I built was safe to 8000). If I wasn't actually competing in them I almost never ran them above about 5000. Didn't need to, not even with them being 2.5L and under.

I'd be perfectly happy shifting a GT, a GT350, or even a GT500 at 2500 around town, 3000 - 3500 in one or two specific stretches, and maybe another 500 rpm above that out in the country. Maybe 4500 coming out of a highway on-ramp or other merging into highway-speed traffic. But nowhere near 6500+ anywhere except on the track.

Funny thing about track driving is that it can actually reduce the "need" to be using more engine revs than necessary in your street driving. You know you can, you know what it's like when you're really trying, and you know that you aren't really trying on the street. So you don't put any pressure on yourself to play some junior/wanna-be version of your track time.


Norm

I do agree, even out of the powerband engine has close to 300 ftlbs of torque, that's not even account for gearing and final drive to get the actual amount of tq applied to the wheels (it's in the thousands)

now an s2000 has about a good 50-or 80 ft cute ft lbs at around 2000-3000 rpm lol

However if you never go past 6500 you are leaving about 80 hp on the table. There's no replacement for rev's, and that is the entire point of a flat plane crank V8. Otherwise a cross plane crank V8 where the opposite is true would suffice ( have about 80-100ft lbs delta's of torque at low rpm) Still won't accelerate faster than at high rpms where HP comes into play.

 

[d1zguy]

It can't. So in a 7-3 desired downshift, i'll have to go 7-4, then 4-3.

yea, and that is the lag I don't appreciate.

 

[Norm Peterson]

However if you never go past 6500 you are leaving about 80 hp on the table. There's no replacement for rev's, and that is the entire point of a flat plane crank V8. Otherwise a cross plane crank V8 where the opposite is true would suffice ( have about 80-100ft lbs delta's of torque at low rpm) Still won't accelerate faster than at high rpms where HP comes into play.

In street driving I hardly ever go past about 5000. But on the track with a 7500 rpm capable engine I wouldn't be spending much time below 5000 (given decently close gear spacing, anyway).


I did have this one vehicle where you kind of had either be in the powerband or down where hardly anybody was home when you cracked the throttle. With hardly any transition between the two, it was pretty much all or almost nothing . . . if you went WOT in 1st below where it came on the pipe, look out, else up came the front wheel, clutch fully engaged the whole time. Anybody here ever ride a 350cc Kawasaki two-stroke triple?


Norm

 

[V00D00]

The connection/fun factor . . . let's see

A sense of satisfaction when you get it right (a small thing, I know, but it's there if you care to listen for it / aren't too distracted to hear it). On the flip side, there's the incentive to do the next shift better when you don't get one right.

Not handing off a task you're perfectly capable of managing all by yourself without assistance. Aka not taking the easy way out - probably an alien concept in many peoples' eyes these days.


^ those 2 statements contradict eachother. you either get it right or you dont; you can be perfectly capable to shift perfectly every time or you cant. does your car have ABS, power steering?

Wanting to be just a little more connected to the physical aspects of driving than just "slap/twist it into 'D' and go". For some, that could be phrased as strong as "hardwired to be that little bit more connected".

D is not M. your replacing the left foot action with right/left hand action. driver still needs to shift and drive

And there's always the matter of not wanting to have this choice taken away and being stuffed in the same box as those who wouldn't have ever chosen a MT. Even indirect influences such as by upscale and halo cars abandoning the MT are working to that end. Every existing car that abandons its MT and every new car that never gets a MT is another nail in the MT's coffin. Don't under-estimate what this might be like, for when it comes time for some strong preference of yours to be in danger of going away completely.

top dollar sales require top dollar technology. I dont want inferior tech on a new status car. they could release a retro 500 build with MT only and be perfectly balanced. we're not posting on here from dial up internet and IBM desktops
Norm

 

[d1zguy]

I would just like to add that your Dial up and IBM desktop does not apply. A car especially one like the GT500 is a toy where fun is most needed some prefer that fun to be in manual form. The only one benefiting from DCT is ford in the form of bragging rights. To the consumer it means nothing. Dial up and IBM desktop would severely cripple a user in day to day use. A manual GT500 wouldn't; it would serve the same purpose as a Nissan Versa day to day... And if you are not getting paid to race and knock milliseconds of your time at the track it is absolutely irrelevant that it has DCT for the average consumer; unless said consumer cares about bragging rights just as ford does and not knowing or wanting to change their own gears.

I've given automatic cars a try and no matter how fast they shift or how good they are for day to day I just can't live with them and will forever own a manual. The day I don't is the day I won't even need a transmission... transmissions are for antiquated bags of bolts.

I can't wait till the day we are talking about how many spools it takes to get x amount of thousands of torque out of my AC induction motors.

 

[waterman]

View attachment 342873
"new status car" I am entertained... again.

 

[V00D00]

I would just like to add that your Dial up and IBM desktop does not apply. A car especially one like the GT500 is a toy where fun is most needed some prefer that fun to be in manual form. The only one benefiting from DCT is ford in the form of bragging rights. To the consumer it means nothing. Dial up and IBM desktop would severely cripple a user in day to day use. A manual GT500 wouldn't; it would serve the same purpose as a Nissan Versa day to day... And if you are not getting paid to race and knock milliseconds of your time at the track it is absolutely irrelevant that it has DCT for the average consumer; unless said consumer cares about bragging rights just as ford does and not knowing or wanting to change their own gears.

I've given automatic cars a try and no matter how fast they shift or how good they are for day to day I just can't live with them and will forever own a manual. The day I don't is the day I won't even need a transmission... transmissions are for antiquated bags of bolts.

I can't wait till the day we are talking about how many spools it takes to get x amount of thousands of torque out of my AC induction motors.

so your saying you agree, faster tech applies in all areas. if you want lesser capable tech, get a lesser model. Im an average consumer. i want the 500 51% because it has a DCT. average consumers are not cross-shopping gt500's with ecoboost mustangs.

nobody needs 4k oled tv tech, but i dont see people complaining about it having different features, or options not added that other companies do.. dont want it, dont buy it. not sure why manual or bust guys are wasting time on something they wont be buying

View attachment 342873


"new status car" I am entertained... again.

isnt that we're all here for?

 

[Norm Peterson]

The connection/fun factor . . . let's see

A sense of satisfaction when you get it right (a small thing, I know, but it's there if you care to listen for it / aren't too distracted to hear it). On the flip side, there's the incentive to do the next shift better when you don't get one right.

Not handing off a task you're perfectly capable of managing all by yourself without assistance. Aka not taking the easy way out - probably an alien concept in many peoples' eyes these days.


^ those 2 statements contradict eachother. you either get it right or you dont; you can be perfectly capable to shift perfectly every time or you cant. does your car have ABS, power steering?

No, they don't. Anybody who thinks that every shift they make with a conventional MT is executed perfectly is only fooling themself. What's worse is not admitting that it happens.

Wanting to be just a little more connected to the physical aspects of driving than just "slap/twist it into 'D' and go". For some, that could be phrased as strong as "hardwired to be that little bit more connected".

D is not M. your replacing the left foot action with right/left finger action. driver still needs to shift and drive

Fixed.

Unless you're only going to use 'M' and never use 'D', what I said stands.

But even if you do only use 'M', twitching your fingers against a pair of glorified microswitches just isn't the same at all.

And there's always the matter of not wanting to have this choice taken away and being stuffed in the same box as those who wouldn't have ever chosen a MT. Even indirect influences such as by upscale and halo cars abandoning the MT are working to that end. Every existing car that abandons its MT and every new car that never gets a MT is another nail in the MT's coffin. Don't under-estimate what this might be like, for when it comes time for some strong preference of yours to be in danger of going away completely.

top dollar sales require top dollar technology. I dont want inferior tech on a new status car.

Looking for status in a Mustang (short of anything truly collectible) does explain a lot here.


Norm

 

[boB]

If I had the option of a good DCT in my on-order GT I would have ordered it. Didn't want the automatic (even though it is quicker) but since a DCT shifts faster than I can while still giving full manual control it seems like a win-win.

 

[Norm Peterson]

so your saying you agree, faster tech applies in all areas. if you want lesser capable tech, get a lesser model. Im an average consumer. i want the 500 51% because it has a DCT.

You want a DCT, that's fine by me. Really. But your preference shouldn't define the only transmission that a GT500 (or any other car, for that matter) is equipped with. No more than any preferences of mine should limit the options open to you.

"Lesser this, lesser that" . . . I guess even the Mustang is no longer immune to selling on the strength of some perceived snob appeal.

average consumers are not cross-shopping gt500's with ecoboost mustangs.

Kind of a straw man . . . though on the other hand are the average prospective GT500 buyers cross-shopping Lamborghinis and Ferraris?

nobody needs 4k oled tv tech, but i dont see people complaining about it having different features, or options not added that other companies do.. dont want it, dont buy it. not sure why manual or bust guys are wasting time on something they wont be buying

Turning this around, I can't come up with any good reason for why the proponents of this DCT are so anti-MT. Like you just said, if you wouldn't want a MT in your new GT500, get yours with the DCT.

All you have to do here is take a "live and let live" attitude toward those of us who would only get such a car with a conventional 3-pedal MT. Let us worry (or not) about the performance gap and whatever image problem you're perceiving.


Norm

 

[bluebeastsrt]

I wish they offered a manual. Just so this thread wouldn't have happened.

 

[Eritas]

You want a DCT, that's fine by me. Really. But your preference shouldn't define the only transmission that a GT500 (or any other car, for that matter) is equipped with. No more than any preferences of mine should limit the options open to you.

Then don't buy any modern supercar, or new Vette, because you can't get them with manuals. The GT500 is following that lead, will probably offer supercar performance, and I'm ok with that.

I'll always have a manual, my mustang has one, but I wouldn't mind a SuperCar or GT500 with DCT to go along with a manual car.

 

[d1zguy]

so your saying you agree, faster tech applies in all areas. if you want lesser capable tech, get a lesser model. Im an average consumer. i want the 500 51% because it has a DCT. average consumers are not cross-shopping gt500's with ecoboost mustangs.

nobody needs 4k oled tv tech, but i dont see people complaining about it having different features, or options not added that other companies do.. dont want it, dont buy it. not sure why manual or bust guys are wasting time on something they wont be buying




isnt that we're all here for?

Absolutely not. I am saying I do not agree with you. Please you're on your own with your insanity

 

[waterman]

isnt that we're all here for?

Entertainment, yes; Status, no, not at all.

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