Who else is Manual or Bust?

[Norm Peterson]

On most twisty mountain roads, 2nd gear is too short, and you will unlikely redline in 3rd without greatly breaking the speed limit. So any additional shifting IS unnecessary. Unless you just want to short-shift and upshift for the sake of upshifting. Or, you can buy a lower powered car with shorter gearing to actually be busy and have fun within legal limits on twisty roads.

The point is 435hp is more than enough to be "boring" on the street. 700hp will require even less shifting, so the increase in action/fun of shifting will be even less.

Perhaps if you drove more to "keep the engine happy enough" and less to a tachometer or speedometer display you would come to not minding a few "unnecessary" shifts.


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

3 questions
1- do you flatfoot/no-lift shift when racing?

No. Don't think I ever have, and that does cover quite a few years. Might help if you knew that I've never been a drag racer, street racer, or into street challenges either. Not even as a teen or a 20-something.

2-besides take-off, how much clutch modulating is there?

Not much (you do need to do a little in certain situations), but when I mentioned 'modulating' I was referring to the throttle. Only the throttle.

3- do you understand that "automatic" doesnt mean you dont have to modulate power with the throttle as well?

Of course. Note that I didn't exempt any transmission type; it was only about what I'd count on having to develop further at the 700 HP level coming from a good bit less than that.


Norm

 

[roygriffin2020]

Lots of canyon carving in Florida? I agree with you that most modern performance cars are too capable to push the limits on public roads. That is as it should be. People should keep their performance driving off public roads as much as possible and keep it on the track.

Even if I'm not "performance driving" on the street, I still think it's fun to shift. Especially in stop and go traffic there are lots of chances to mess with shifting gears.

Canyons in Florida? You bet there are. I did not believe that Florida had any hills at all until I drove from Houston to Disney World. North Florida is very pretty with highways that are up and down constantly.

 

[roygriffin2020]

On most twisty mountain roads, 2nd gear is too short, and you will unlikely redline in 3rd without greatly breaking the speed limit. So any additional shifting IS unnecessary. Unless you just want to short-shift and upshift for the sake of upshifting. Or, you can buy a lower powered car with shorter gearing to actually be busy and have fun within legal limits on twisty roads.

The point is 435hp is more than enough to be "boring" on the street. 700hp will require even less shifting, so the increase in action/fun of shifting will be even less.

So would downshifting be unnecessary and having control of the car with the throttle? Or would you just burn the brakes until you are slow enough to make the curve?

 

[Hack]

I for one hope y’all don’t buy one because of no MT option. Makes it easier for me to get one at sticker. Lol

You are welcome and good luck with your purchase.

 

[waterman]

I for one hope y’all don’t buy one because of no MT option. Makes it easier for me to get one at sticker. Lol

"get one at sticker". I am entertained.

 

[Eritas]

My car with over 700whp 3.31 gears and 28.4 tires hits about 105mph in 3rd(might be higher gotta check my logs), and it's an absolute blast to drive on twisty roads in second.

My father in laws C7 Callaway handles better but it's literally always in the wrong gear in those scenarios. I know we are talking more about DCT transmissions here, but in either case I'll shift my car thank you very much.

Put 3.73s in and 2nd gear becomes be too short and 3rd is at 4,000rpm at 52mph and will top out 91mph at 7K and 98mph at 7,500rpm. So for pretty much all twisty canyon roads at legal speeds, a 5.0 requires NO shifting.

Perhaps if you drove more to "keep the engine happy enough" and less to a tachometer or speedometer display you would come to not minding a few "unnecessary" shifts.

Norm

I have no clue what your'e trying to say. The engine's "powerband" is 4,000-redline. As mentioned above, a stock 5.0 requires NO shifting for twisty mountain roads at legal speeds and can still put you in jail. 2nd gear redlines at 64-68mph (depending on redline) so 3rd gear is THE gear for mountain roads, and any additional shifts become "unnecessary" short-shifts. -further backing up my claim that a stock Mustang GT has more than enough power to be boring and require no shifting when having fun on twisty roads on the street.

So would downshifting be unnecessary and having control of the car with the throttle? Or would you just burn the brakes until you are slow enough to make the curve?

I don't know what you're asking. It's rare to find a 35mph hairpin unless you're on the tail of the dragon where sure, you can downshift to 2nd gear. Most twisty roads have minimum speeds of 40-45mph where 3rd gear is ideal and you don't need to downshift for those corners, especially if you're pushing the legal limit.

The only real shifting that's done on the street is moving from a stop, onramps, and pretty much all cases are boring shifting at low RPMs. Now in a miata, you have to work hard to try to break speed limits and there's a lot of redline shifting in order not to hold up traffic when getting on the freeway. If you want to have fun with a manual on the street, high HP cars is NOT the answer.

 

[V00D00]

No. Don't think I ever have, and that does cover quite a few years. Might help if you knew that I've never been a drag racer, street racer, or into street challenges either. Not even as a teen or a 20-something.



Not much (you do need to do a little in certain situations), but when I mentioned 'modulating' I was referring to the throttle. Only the throttle.



Of course. Note that I didn't exempt any transmission type; it was only about what I'd count on having to develop further at the 700 HP level coming from a good bit less than that.


Norm

given the limited use of the clutch then, what exactly is the inherent connection or fun factor manual or bust guys are so worked up about ?

 

[roygriffin2020]

I don't know what you're asking. It's rare to find a 35mph hairpin unless you're on the tail of the dragon where sure, you can downshift to 2nd gear. Most twisty roads have minimum speeds of 40-45mph where 3rd gear is ideal and you don't need to downshift for those corners, especially if you're pushing the legal limit.

The only real shifting that's done on the street is moving from a stop, onramps, and pretty much all cases are boring shifting at low RPMs. Now in a miata, you have to work hard to try to break speed limits and there's a lot of redline shifting in order not to hold up traffic when getting on the freeway. If you want to have fun with a manual on the street, high HP cars is NOT the answer.

Have you ever done any REAL backroads driving, ever? The speed limit is 55 and the 90 degree curve is at 25-30. This is what I mean to downshift before the curve and power through it. Not burn your brakes until you get to the curve and drive like a girl. This is where I drive a lot in North Texas. Curve after curve after curve. Taking these curves at the speed limit will take some kinda talent and practice and a great car that can take it. Both my GT350 and ZL1 have driven these same curves over and over and I really could make a good comparison between the two.

This is REAL fun and legal.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Put 3.73s in and 2nd gear becomes be too short and 3rd is at 4,000rpm at 52mph and will top out 91mph at 7K and 98mph at 7,500rpm. So for pretty much all twisty canyon roads at legal speeds, a 5.0 requires NO shifting.

I have no clue what your'e trying to say. The engine's "powerband" is 4,000-redline. As mentioned above, a stock 5.0 requires NO shifting for twisty mountain roads at legal speeds and can still put you in jail. 2nd gear redlines at 64-68mph (depending on redline) so 3rd gear is THE gear for mountain roads, and any additional shifts become "unnecessary" short-shifts. -further backing up my claim that a stock Mustang GT has more than enough power to be boring and require no shifting when having fun on twisty roads on the street.

What I'm trying to get across is that you don't have to be driving your mountain roads with the same intensity that you would drive a similarly twisty road course in a road race or even just an HPDE event. Nor like you would if you'd entered a hill climb race on that very mountain road.

You don't always have to keep the engine in the fat part of its powerband to enjoy the drive. I don't know how else to describe this to somebody who's only thinking "race mode for the engine" when the drive itself is only a little past "moderate driving" otherwise.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

given the limited use of the clutch then, what exactly is the inherent connection or fun factor manual or bust guys are so worked up about ?

Clutch modulation (what I was responding to) isn't the same thing as clutch use. Most times you don't modulate clutch engagement other than in 1st from a stop, but as I said before exceptions do exist.


The connection/fun factor . . . let's see

A sense of satisfaction when you get it right (a small thing, I know, but it's there if you care to listen for it / aren't too distracted to hear it). On the flip side, there's the incentive to do the next shift better when you don't get one right.

Not handing off a task you're perfectly capable of managing all by yourself without assistance. Aka not taking the easy way out - probably an alien concept in many peoples' eyes these days.

Wanting to be just a little more connected to the physical aspects of driving than just "slap/twist it into 'D' and go". For some, that could be phrased as strong as "hardwired to be that little bit more connected".

And there's always the matter of not wanting to have this choice taken away and being stuffed in the same box as those who wouldn't have ever chosen a MT. Even indirect influences such as by upscale and halo cars abandoning the MT are working to that end. Every existing car that abandons its MT and every new car that never gets a MT is another nail in the MT's coffin. Don't under-estimate what this might be like, for when it comes time for some strong preference of yours to be in danger of going away completely.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

Have you ever done any REAL backroads driving, ever? The speed limit is 55 and the 90 degree curve is at 25-30. This is what I mean to downshift before the curve and power through it. Not burn your brakes until you get to the curve and drive like a girl. This is where I drive a lot in North Texas. Curve after curve after curve. Taking these curves at the speed limit will take some kinda talent and practice and a great car that can take it. Both my GT350 and ZL1 have driven these same curves over and over and I really could make a good comparison between the two.

This is REAL fun and legal.

Just because a van is suppose to take that corner at 30mph doesn't mean your mustang can't take it at 40-45 legally without being dangerous or squealing the tires. But if you like to take these types of corners at their recommended yellow speed limits, then yes you have to downshift to 2nd, and you might as well take corners in a parking lot while you're at it having fun going around corners slowly.

What I'm trying to get across is that you don't have to be driving your mountain roads with the same intensity that you would drive a similarly twisty road course in a road race or even just an HPDE event. Nor like you would if you'd entered a hill climb race on that very mountain road.

You don't always have to keep the engine in the fat part of its powerband to enjoy the drive. I don't know how else to describe this to somebody who's only thinking "race mode for the engine" when the drive itself is only a little past "moderate driving" otherwise.

Norm

All my comments were taking corners at legal speed limits. I never said driving as fast as you do on track.

If you don't keep the engine in it's powerband, what's the point of driving? You want power and you want to shift, but you don't want to keep it in the powerband? You're pretty special.

 

[roygriffin2020]

Just because a van is suppose to take that corner at 30mph doesn't mean your mustang can't take it at 40-45 legally without being dangerous or squealing the tires. But if you like to take these types of corners at their recommended yellow speed limits, then yes you have to downshift to 2nd, and you might as well take corners in a parking lot while you're at it having fun going around corners slowly.

All my comments were taking corners at legal speed limits. I never said driving as fast as you do on track.

If you don't keep the engine in it's powerband, what's the point of driving? You want power and you want to shift, but you don't want to keep it in the powerband? You're pretty special.

Yellow signs are not laws only white signs. They are only recommendations. I choose not to take those recommendations. I choose to stay at the limit. Dangerous is only if you don't know how to take the corners correctly. Same as cliff diving, if you know how it is not dangerous.

 

[d1zguy]

Yellow signs are not laws only white signs. They are only recommendations. I choose not to take those recommendations. I choose to stay at the limit. Dangerous is only if you don't know how to take the corners correctly. Same as cliff diving, if you know how it is not dangerous.

This. I took a on ramp at about 55MPH next to a state trooper (2 lane wide on ramp) the suggested speed was 25 mph. He didn't bat an eye. This was when I was on my s2000. Now if you did the same on a toyota tercel for example and nearly lost control I'm sure you would get pulled over.

 

[d1zguy]

I've driven and had cars with DCT's. They suck in practical use. Takes forever to drop down 3 gears and they cannot skip gears. The 10r80 is better in this aspect as it can skip. The DCT is faster at the track going through gears in order and down in order. Otherwise once you ask a 3rd shift from it it will take long than the second (DCT's have 2 gears engaged at any time and just change the input shaft via the "dual clutch" when shifting) For daily usage and fun they blow.

I test drove a 10r80 mustang and just didn't care for it. Not as fast as the DCT's i've had in a straight line (e90 M3) and hunts around for gears to much and when it does the torque converter decouples and just feels like jelly in everyday driving. For straight line accel sure but everyday nah

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