Engine Differences of the 350R

[madlag]

There are several Types of engine failures:
1) Rings not seating properly
Symptom - causing excessive oil use
Could Affect - could lead to (2-4) if oil is not checked and gets too low
Prevention - Breaking Engine correctly do not baby it, and limited flogging till first oil change (200-500 mi)

2) Bearing Failure - Engine goes boom -
Symptom -
Could Affect -
Prevention -

3) Oil Pump Gear - Loss of oil pressure -
Symptom -
Could Affect -
Prevention -

4) I forget the other one
Symptom -
Could Affect -
Prevention -

Please update this I have not experienced 2-4 I can only speak about 1

Prob is you don’t which one happened where OR if it was just a valve seal leaking excessively (or some other semi trivial event) and a ridiculous policy cause them to replace with a new motor.

2018 MY year received new pistons and rings. My guess is on that as being a culprit...

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[PP0001]

First, what we know of “engine failures” is vague and unclear. We know that motors in both lines have been replaced that didn’t need to be replaced... so to call it an engine failure, and knowing that ford has a blanket “don’t open engine just replace it” policy and without knowing what component is at fault, is just silly.

Second, From what I’ve seen the R “engine failures” are rare. That’s logical since there are so few of them. According to that last excel spreadsheet I saw floating around, which I can’t find now, the numbers were extremely low. I’ll generalize the numbers from memory:

25k GT350’s Produced. Let’s estimate high and say 250 replaced engines. This means a failure rate of 1%

2300 GT350R’s produced with let’s just say 5 replaced engines means a failure of 0.2%

If GT350R’s represent 9.2% of all cars poduced, and only 5 have failed, then I’d say a GT350R failure rate is more like 0.02% against total population failures; making it statistically less likely to fail according to these numbers. Is that because of a difference in engine? No damn clue.

My point being that if the engines were identical, we’d expect to see similar % of failure rates across the line. There are things that could explain this. Just wanted to point it out. I’m sure there are others better at math than me. Thx

Understand the intent of your post but just wanted to clarify that the real production numbers for the first 4MY's and are as follows:

GT350's - 15661
GT350R's - 2138
Total - 17799

Based on the above production numbers the R models represent 12% of the total production numbers.

 

[TomcatDriver]

First, what we know of “engine failures” is vague and unclear. We know that motors in both lines have been replaced that didn’t need to be replaced... so to call it an engine failure, and knowing that ford has a blanket “don’t open engine just replace it” policy and without knowing what component is at fault, is just silly.

Second, From what I’ve seen the R “engine failures” are rare. That’s logical since there are so few of them. According to that last excel spreadsheet I saw floating around, which I can’t find now, the numbers were extremely low. I’ll generalize the numbers from memory:

25k GT350’s Produced. Let’s estimate high and say 250 replaced engines. This means a failure rate of 1%

2300 GT350R’s produced with let’s just say 5 replaced engines means a failure of 0.2%

If GT350R’s represent 9.2% of all cars poduced, and only 5 have failed, then I’d say a GT350R failure rate is more like 0.02% against total population failures; making it statistically less likely to fail according to these numbers. Is that because of a difference in engine? No damn clue.

My point being that if the engines were identical, we’d expect to see similar % of failure rates across the line. There are things that could explain this. Just wanted to point it out. I’m sure there are others better at math than me. Thx

Yea, except that we don't really know those numbers do we?

 

[madlag]

Understand the intent of your post but just wanted to clarify that the real production numbers for the first 4MY's and are as follows:

GT350's - 15661
GT350R's - 2138
Total - 17799

Based on the above production numbers the R models represent 12% of the total production numbers.

Thanks for clarifying the exact numbers! I could recall exactly

Yea, except that we don't really know those numbers do we?

Looks like some do! I obvious do not know them exactly. Glad to have this info now tho. I obviously used nice round numbers lol.

 

[TomcatDriver]

Thanks for clarifying the exact numbers! I could recall exactly


Looks like some do! I obvious do not know them exactly. Glad to have this info now tho. I obviously used nice round numbers lol.

I mean we really don't know the failure rate. I doubt anyone outside Ford really does.

 

[AceOne]

Thanks @honeybadger and @madlag that just about wraps this up I believe.

The GT350 and GT350R engines are in fact, not identical. Seems the GT350R gets the Ford Racing phasers, that's all we know at this time.



Assembly Plant after it's been "picked", but where along the line changes in every plant usually.

I am building my 2.0 version of 5.2XS using the new GT500 voodoo Gen 2 block. Just ordered most of the parts last month and ran into some
variations for part numbers. I get my info directly froma Ford engineer that develops the Voodoo and other engines.

The following is what I email to the Ford Engineer that I have contact with. He helped develop the Voodoo motor and the engine improvements for for FR.

<<<< " We are running into another discrepancy on the cam phasers. My parts guy came up with the following info " So, GT and regular GT350 use the FR3Z-6C525-B and FR3Z-6256-B. The later GT350R uses the new style phasers which are a GR3Z-6256-A and GR3Z-6C525-B. Currently, the phaser kit from FP (M-6004-A50R ) isn't set to release until around later next week. " The FR kit phaser kit description says there is better oil control but also implies different than GT phasers but same as GT350 phasers.

FR description:

"Variable Cam Timing (VCT) phasers require proper oil pressure to function correctly. It is inherent that all cam phasers have a certain oil leak rate. These high-performance cam phasers have a much lower leak rate than stock, allowing better control of the phasers at higher engine speeds and loads. These cam phasers are oriented for racing applications.

• Fits 2015-2017 Mustang GT 5.0L
• Original equipment on 2015-2018 Mustang GT350 5.2L"

FP picture shows the GR3Z number on the phaser...


I used my vin from my 2016 GT350R and we got the FR3Z part numbers. With my intentions of turning this motor higher than 8500 rpm can you clarify which would be the best phasers to use and if the GR3Z phasers are what is being used in the FR phasers kit? The phasers I bought form FR back in 2017 that I have here with MMR phaser deletes that allow me to check clearances at full retard and full advance have FR3Z-6C525-BA Intake phasers and for exhaust phasers just FR3Z laser marked on one of the sprockets...nothing after the FR3Z. FRPP boxes were not marked with part numbers either.

Thanks for you help,">>>>

Here is his response, straight from the horses mouth so to speak:
"The GR3Z phasers are the low leak phasers, definitely recommended for your type of racing, and the ones in our kit. The current data shows they go in the GT350R only. It looks like they may have been introduced after the 2016MY.


With the FR3Z phasers, you could experience a condition where the cams start to oscillate due to excessive leakage of the phaser and then the PCM will park the cams to initial position due to the fault. Oil viscosity/quality/temperature plays a large part in this as well."


I hope this clears up the muddy waters! I was confused too due to my R vin pulling the FR3Z numbers. There are many running revisions to parts on newly developed engines.

I have run my current 5.2L with CPC to 8400 rpm (10 runs bask to back on dyno) and raced it for 2.5 seasons and turned it to 8200 rpm in 5th on 125 shot of nitrous during TX mile runs and have not had any issues with the FR3Z phasers that I build this motor with. It has 29,000 miles on it now with at least 1/3 racing miles. I am installing the GR3Z phasers in the 2.0 version as I am going higher compression and targeting 9,000 rpm with a typical 8700 rpm rev limit if it all works out.

 

[btown93]

Have your parts guy check HVBOM on your phasers, it’s possible the normal parts catalog will show the FR3Z but the BOM will show GR3Z. This what I ran into the other day.

 

[honeybadger]

By chance could someone educated me on the differences between GR3Z-6256-A and GR3Z-6C525-B. Is one the phaser and one the intake cam sprocket?

I think I might have messed up my order. I ordered (2) of part # GR3Z-6C525-B

 

[AceOne]

By chance could someone educated me on the differences between GR3Z-6256-A and GR3Z-6C525-B. Is one the phaser and one the intake cam sprocket?

I think I might have messed up my order. I ordered (2) of part # GR3Z-6C525-B

This is what came in the FR upgrade phaser kit:

These are not the part numbers for ordering though. The FR kits is probably the easiest way to get them. they come with new bolts too.

 

[honeybadger]

This is what came in the FR upgrade phaser kit:

These are not the part numbers for ordering though. The FR kits is probably the easiest way to get them. they come with new bolts too.

Thanks for the confirmation. I've already ordered chains, new guides, ARP bolts, etc. so was hoping to order the phasers separately. Talked Whitebearlake this morning and got it figured out.

By the way, I don't supposed your Ford contact can help a brother get early access to the 5.2 pickup for the new oil pan?

 

[AceOne]

@honeybadger
One is the intake phaser and the other is the exhaust phaser. the gears are attached. You need 2 of each.

Thanks for the confirmation. I've already ordered chains, new guides, ARP bolts, etc. so was hoping to order the phasers separately. Talked Whitebearlake this morning and got it figured out.

By the way, I don't supposed your Ford contact can help a brother get early access to the 5.2 pickup for the new oil pan?

The M*6004*A50R is just the phasers and the 12 bolts to attache them on cams. I didn't mean the full timing kit...I don't know if the GR3Z phasers even come in the full timing kit...they didn't in 2016 when I built my first one.

New oil pan, Is it available? I have only read the description of it being structural and baffled. The current composite pan has worked fine for me so far.

 

[honeybadger]

Ahhh....that would've made my order easy

And yep - the FP350S oil pan is out. Still waiting on the pickup, tho. Booo

https://performanceparts.ford.com/p...GJW_eJDYL3IvoOWwiDB2k1xFDVuyzZAHoU87o3_AMMInA

 

[bauern]

New oil pan, Is it available? I have only read the description of it being structural and baffled. The current composite pan has worked fine for me so far.

Someone at TMO has it through Autonation WBL(M-6675-M52RR) $1155. plus pickup for the Voodoo oil pump.

 

[AceOne]

Someone at TMO has it through Autonation WBL(M-6675-M52RR) $1155. plus pickup for the Voodoo oil pump.

Wow $$$ just like the 302S pan. I just email my guy today at WBL ..guess I should have asked him. Not sure I will spend money on it. So far I haven't had issues with the composite pan. Anybody actually put eyeballs on one? Is it the same 302S pan?

 

[honeybadger]

Wow $$$ just like the 302S pan. I just email my guy today at WBL ..guess I should have asked him. Not sure I will spend money on it. So far I haven't had issues with the composite pan. Anybody actually put eyeballs on one? Is it the same 302S pan?

Yeah, it's big $$$. From what I was told, they've revised the baffles. Not recommended to use a true 302S/302R pan.

Probably unneeded in your case. I am hoping for one for the extra oil capacity and safety net during long sweepers.

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