True Flex Fuel Tune

[Rolls]

@Rolls

Is this possible? The above tables are from a gen 3 and I would like to have them in the gen 2 strategy's

Post on our forums and we will go digging for you.

Except who drives like that. And are we getting close to perfect being the enemy of good?

Because once you achieve that capability and advertise it, some dumb ass is gonna do it. And if they blow the motor they'll come looking for you. If instead the directive is drive like grand ma for 10 minutes, but the car is ready in 3 minutes, nobody does anything stupid and you avoid an encounter

We don't tune cars or sell tunes. It is up the tuner to decide what is safe and what isn't. Doing the above is basically what we have already done. I'd always advise driving safely after a refill, however the way the system works we want it to be much more robust and safer than the OEM methodology.

We have 1000s of flex fuel Ford Falcons in Australia running like that without issue. Have never heard of one blowing up as a result of a E85 -> E10 change in fuel. They don't even run widebands either.

With a wideband and knock control, you'd have to try pretty hard to pop a motor with this methodology.

You need that level of capability to ensure safety in all scenarios.

It’s a corner case, sure most people don’t drive like that, but the current system has a hole in its capabilities. Mike is working to improve the inferred system, but the current established flex method widely in use has inherent risk right after the fuel is switched. If you don’t have a PC to monitor inferred ethanol content you’re at risk, that’s too much work.
The goal of the work done here either by PCMtec to sell a sensor based system or by mike and k4fxd to improve the inferred system is to eliminate this risk. The system should be safe all the time, willingly leaving a 5-10 minute time period in where the system isn’t safe is bad engineering.

Tldr: most people don’t drive like that but if someone does it’s dangerous, so we want to eliminate the danger.

Spot on.

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[WildHorse]

The ford logic isn’t that bad once you realize how it works and log a few transitions.

Yeah it stops learning at e60 or so, after that it'll just trim it out. I have no doubt that inferred is safe-ish, cause it caps everything. I just prefer a ethanol sensor route. Why be marginal, well lets say fairly accurate with hiccups when it could be relatively accurate and adjust accordingly IE: as much timing as possible, not trimming out all that much etc., etc. IIRC right now it caps timing & with the trims there's no point in going much more than e50-60.

 

[engineermike]

Yeah it stops learning at e60 or so, after that it'll just trim it out. I have no doubt that inferred is safe-ish, cause it caps everything. I just prefer a ethanol sensor route. Why be marginal, well lets say fairly accurate with hiccups when it could be relatively accurate and adjust accordingly IE: as much timing as possible, not trimming out all that much etc., etc. IIRC right now it caps timing & with the trims there's no point in going much more than e50-60.

I think you might have mis-understood some of my posts. The stock Ford logic in the gen3 F-150 will learn up to 77.5%, but with about 3 keystrokes can be changed to learn all the way to e100. The F-150 will also add up to 25 deg of borderline timing at 85% ethanol and up to 13 deg timing at 50%. Timing starts ramping up at only 30%. But this can be manipulated however you want, including different addition curves for different charge and coolant temps.

FWIW, the research papers seem to indicate the anti-knock returns start diminishing past about 50% blend.

 

[Rolls]

On turbo applications the anti knock seems to top out at about e80 era

 

[Rolls]

We looked into the brazil mode in mode detail for you guys. No cal has it enabled from what we can find. More info here.

https://forum.pcmtec.com/topic/1846-brazil-calibration/

 

[AWESOMO 4000]

I think you might have mis-understood some of my posts. The stock Ford logic in the gen3 F-150 will learn up to 77.5%, but with about 3 keystrokes can be changed to learn all the way to e100. The F-150 will also add up to 25 deg of borderline timing at 85% ethanol and up to 13 deg timing at 50%. Timing starts ramping up at only 30%. But this can be manipulated however you want, including different addition curves for different charge and coolant temps.

FWIW, the research papers seem to indicate the anti-knock returns start diminishing past about 50% blend.

EngineerMike - So the factory Ford logic has timing capped at 25-dgrees for E85?

 

[engineermike]

EngineerMike - So the factory Ford logic has timing capped at 25-dgrees for E85?

The ford logic for determining timing is pretty complex, but no. There are several caps that could come into play. Preignition and cylinder pressure are two of them, and those are calculated and include lambda and even ethanol content in their calculations.

 

[stang17]

Well my buddy let me know canbus is now available for the workshop accounts. He just recently set his up and is quite pleased with it.

2017 (digital dash swap) with gen 2 2.9 whipple , using Zeitronix and custom plug for Nguage.

 

[junits15]

Well my buddy let me know canbus is now available for the workshop accounts. He just recently set his up and is quite pleased with it.

2017 (digital dash swap) with gen 2 2.9 whipple , using Zeitronix and custom plug for Nguage.

Here's hoping we can get it on protuner too one day

 

[Rolls]

https://forum.pcmtec.com/topic/1880-oem-flex-fuel-modifiers-used-with-pcmtec-flex-fuel/

For you guys playing with our software, you might find this interesting to test out. It would allow a hybrid of the Ford OEM flex logic along with our custom flex logic.

 

[Rolls]

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/pcmtec.190584/page-15#post-3886867

Black Friday Sale!

You asked for it, here it is. ProTuner with Custom OS now available and with a mouth watering 37% discount!

This is a special product limited to 1 Vehicle or VIN for CustomOS designed for the DIY market. For ~$650 USD you get the ProTuner product WITH full access to the CustomOS wizard. This includes the 10 credits required for licensing a multi tune with all the bells and whistles.

This is a ~$400 DISCOUNT get it while you can!

https://www.pcmtec.com/pcmtec-editor-diy-protuner-one-car-customos-edition

ONE WEEK ONLY then price goes back to $1k USD.


Note. This is limited to 1 vehicle only and designed for DIY use.

There will be upgrade paths for the following available upon request (simply the difference in price)

Existing Pro Tuner users with unlimited VINs who want to gain access to the CustomOS Wizard.

Existing Pro Tuner users who want to gain access to the CustomOS Wizard and only want 1 VIN.

Anyone with a 1 VIN limit to upgrade to unlimited VINs (The full workshop product).

We realise most of you here are single use users who may only license their car this product is for you. If you use the product commercially then we recommend the full workshop product. Or if down the track you decide that you do want to do more vehicles, then you can always upgrade.

 

[Jjmoberg]

Any update on commercially available true flex tunes? I posted in my other E50 tune thread wondering if I should just get an E85 tunes based on what is available from tuners and the fact that i will be running pump E51-83 at all times in the warm months unless i travel (probably rarely to never in the M1) or during winter storage. I want the car to be as safe as possible, but if the flex tunes are all inferred and the E85 tune would be ok with comes out of the pump, and Im not gonna use flex to actually go between gas and E, maybe i dont need to worry about flex tuning?

I have heard Livernois, Juggernaut, and Lund for flex, but have read Livernois isnt great for the A10, Lund is always hit and miss with customer service in general, and havent found much to read on Juggernaut for flex.

I would most like to do a 91/93 plus E85 from Wengerd if it would be safe in my circumstance. Though his replies to PM are very flaky as well.

 

[stang17]

I've run whipple tune, PBD Shoemaker tune, and Lund based tune. Lund tune by far has the best partial throttle, idle, and start up.

Lund also options a PCMTEC $450 add on option in which they can get you tru canbus flex fuel. If you look back a few posts you will see the hardware required to run it.

Figure with hardware and price of Lund tuning you'll be in the $1,500-$2,000 range depending if you are boosted or not and where you source hardware from.

 

[K4fxd]

I have some good news for anyone with a flex tune without a sensor.

To keep this short and sweet I had a bad vacuum leak and my car locked onto the correct E%.

I tried several times to make it lock wrong but it always knew the correct %age.

The last test after fixing the leak, was at the pump I pulled the PCV hose and drove away. From what was in the tank and what I added I calculated the E should be 60% It locked in at 63%.

Ford's logic is better than I thought. This is on a gen 2 tuned with PCMtec software.

 

[shogun32]

Ford's logic is better than I thought. This is on a gen 2 tuned with PCMtec software.

and cowardly of the factory for not enabling. I assume you still had to use PCMtec to tweak the learn-flows and time etc?

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