Gen 2 Voodoo block for Coyote build

[engineermike]

Any idea of duration differences between gt350, gt500, and gen3?

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[olaosunt]

I believe the Cobra Jet “hybrid cams” are GT350 spec cams except for a cross plane crank. Thus requiring the 5.2 rockers due to the smaller base circle on the cams. The cams and followers only work together but they can be used in 5.0 heads if the rockers are slightly clearanced. MMR sells them already modified for use in a 5.0. I’m sure this was already covered but was just adding it just in case. There was a thread on another site by MMR outlining the requirements for 5.2 Voodoo heads on a 5.0 with the hybrid camshaft and the subject of using those camshafts in a 5.0 head was covered with using the modified 5.2 followers. I believe it was stated there would be binding issues if trying to use the 5.2 followers with a standard 5.0 camshaft even with the clearancing due to the difference in base circles on the camshafts.
If I’m posting things already mentioned I apologize.

Ken

Ken
I think you may have things a little
comfused .

I have used the MMR modifiers rocker arms , and they only allow the use 15-7 GT cams with GT 350 heads... they do NOT allow the use of the “hybrid “ cams in GT heafs.

I have also so used the GT 350 spec cross plane cama - they are sold By Ford racing - and they require the GT 350 rocker arms for use in GT 350 heads
you CAN NOT use then in GT heads .

 

[4sdvenom]

You are correct. I went back and reread it and I had a couple things mixed up. The following was originally posted by MMR. It was posted in 2016 so they only mention 11-16 years but would in fact include 2017. I apologize for for the mix up. The modified rockers are 11-17 5.0 rockers.

MMR:
Over the last few months we have been getting many calls in regards to what is required to install GT350 Heads onto the 11-16 Blocks so we figured we would share some information to help everyone within the community.



In order to understand what is needed you must understand the heads themselves. The Valvetrain geometry has changed slightly (Valves have been spread apart slightly), this however does not prevent the heads from being used with the earlier camshaft spacing since the folllower wheel or Rocker arm wheel is still 100% in contact with the 11-16 Style camshaft lobes. Now for the first problem. In an effort to reduce weight (among other things) the base circle of the GT350 camshafts were reduced, since the lifter bore locations were relatively unchanged a new roller rocker was required to fill the gap of the new smaller diameter base circle of the cam, the rockers also feature a different diameter wheel and thinner wheel to reduce friction. Ford Simply moved the centerline axis of the wheel to take up the gap caused by the new smaller base circle.



Many of you may be asking what this means for you. Basically if you want to run your existing stock or aftermarket 11-16 cams it requires the use of a Modified rocker arm (now available from MMR), the rocker arm has been clearanced to mimic the GT350 rocker arms because the camshaft will actually touch the rocker arm due to the extended valve heights of the GT350 head. Many of you may be asking "why cant I just use a GT350 rocker arm?" . The answer is that the GT350 rocker arm is not compatible with the base circle of the 11-16 cams and will hold the valve open due to its relocated wheel.



Other information you may need:



Head gaskets - You need to use 2015+ head gaskets due to the oil restrictor, GT350 gaskets can also be used but only suggested on a 3.700" bore



Bore Size - Yes, the valves do open and have adequate clearance for the std 3.630 2011-2016 Bore size



Valve Springs - The factory Valve springs have approx 60lbs of seat pressure, if your combination requires an upgrade these heads require a custom valve spring and retainer (due to the new valve length) MMR has them in stock with 2 options, see below



Camshafts - When using the MMR modified rocker arms any 2011-2016 Camshaft can be used



Other Options - Ford will be releasing custom cams later this month, many people think they are GT350 cams but they are not, they are cams made for Ford with GT350 specs but with the std 2011-2016 Firing order, they also require the 2015+ Timing chain and phaser kit (also now called the Gen2). These cams retail from MMR for $1399 but also require the GT350 rockers since these cams use a small base circle like the GT350 production cams.



Below is a picture of the GT350 heads using a 11-16 Camshaft and stock 11-16 Rocker arm, you can see it does not have adequate clearance between the rocker and the cam lobe.

Shown below is the modified Rocker from MMR, minimal material is removed in the CNC machine and this modification provides proper clearance.

A shot of the GT350 cylinder heads

”picture missing “





Parts needed (we will update this list with links to the website shortly):



If you want to run your 11-16 Cams you will need:



MMR Modified Rocker arms - http://www.modularmotorsportsracing...ge=product_info&cPath=4_30_35&products_id=885



If your cams require upgraded valve springs you will need: http://www.modularmotorsportsracing...ge=product_info&cPath=4_30_35&products_id=850



2015-2016 Head Gaskets

If you want to run the new Ford Racing Cams Cams you will need:

The Ford Racing 5.2 Cams http://www.modularmotorsportsracing...page=product_info&cPath=26_27&products_id=893

2015-2016 Head gaskets

GT350 Rocker Arms

2015 + Timing Chain Kit http://www.modularmotorsportsracing...page=product_info&cPath=28_29&products_id=820

Any questions, feel free to ask anytime in this thread.

-Question:

Do you know the duration numbers @ .050" on the new Ford Racing cams? Can these cams be used in 2011-2016 5.0 heads?

-Answer

No, the new Ford Racing 5.2 cams due to the smaller base circle cannot be used, they would require excessive lifter shimming which is not suggested.

I realize the above info is the opposite of what I originally started the thread but feel it is worth including. The info is old news but added hear for any future people like myself looking for the same.
Thanks
Ken

 

[engineermike]

Fwiw, according to the calibration...

Intake duration:
Gen3 - 259 deg
Voodoo - 259
Predator - 270

 

[olaosunt]

The Ford performances cams also have 270 durarion . Intake /exhaust .

So only difference to the predator cams would be less lift ?
0.551 vs 0.567 ?

 

[olaosunt]

The Ford performances cams also have 270 durarion . Intake /exhaust .

So only difference to the predator cams would be less lift ?
0.551 vs 0.567 ?

Since Predator has dished 9.7: 1 pistons , can I assume there will be PTV clearance issues using the predator cams with the domed voodoo/Mahle 12:1 pistons ?

 

[80FoxCoupe]

Since Predator has dished 9.7: 1 pistons , can I assume there will be PTV clearance issues using the predator cams with the domed voodoo/Mahle 12:1 pistons ?

Dont forget about ramp rate, lift at .006

 

[80FoxCoupe]

Since Predator has dished 9.7: 1 pistons , can I assume there will be PTV clearance issues using the predator cams with the domed voodoo/Mahle 12:1 pistons ?

Aftermarket pistons have generous valve reliefs despite being dish or dome

 

[windsor]

And FYI if you are in the market the brand new Gen 2 voodoo blocks can now be had for $1500 plush shipping ... which is incredible . About the same price as the Gen 2 coyote bare block .!

Where are you finding voodoo blocks for $1500? Are they the M-6010-M52B blocks you're referring to?

 

[olaosunt]

No- that’s the predator variant - Ford part number KR3Z-6010-A
I was referring to “voodoo variant” likely the discontinued M -6010-M52-A
Ford performance had them on sale for $1800
the Ford part number is GR3Z-6010-F
There are few left but if you can get one you should not have to pay more than $1600

The only difference in the blocks is the extra machining for the larger predator rods and the location of oil squirters.

 

[windsor]

Great. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Angrey]

Honestly, the more I read it's a 2 bucket issue, if you're making less than say 900 wheel, any of the generation of block is acceptable. Conversely, if you're making above that, responsible builders are recommending sleeves and then again, any generation of block is comparable once sleeved. The only exception being I'd avoid gen II coyote blocks because of the 11mm head fasteners.

Otherwise the differences and improvements are incremental. Those of us with OCD always want the newest/best stuff available, but at the end if it performs the same, and it's more economical, just go with any gen and sleeve it.

I'm personally NOT a fan of this whole plasma coating crap. It's great for OEM power levels and I know there are guys who run crazy power on non-sleeved blocks, but just for the structural rigidity to the block and wear resistance of the cylinder walls, it's preferable.

 

[windsor]

Honestly, the more I read it's a 2 bucket issue, if you're making less than say 900 wheel, any of the generation of block is acceptable. Conversely, if you're making above that, responsible builders are recommending sleeves and then again, any generation of block is comparable once sleeved. The only exception being I'd avoid gen II coyote blocks because of the 11mm head fasteners.

Otherwise the differences and improvements are incremental. Those of us with OCD always want the newest/best stuff available, but at the end if it performs the same, and it's more economical, just go with any gen and sleeve it.

I'm personally NOT a fan of this whole plasma coating crap. It's great for OEM power levels and I know there are guys who run crazy power on non-sleeved blocks, but just for the structural rigidity to the block and wear resistance of the cylinder walls, it's preferable.

I agree with your thoughts. I spoke with Livernois the other day on the phone and they actually recommended the Gen1/2 over the 3 if going non-sleeved for 900 wheel. MPR said they're all about the same at that power level. I'm torn...not really wanting to go sleeved, may possibly still just do an aluminator, or even a new stock short block even and send it...

 

[Angrey]

I agree with your thoughts. I spoke with Livernois the other day on the phone and they actually recommended the Gen1/2 over the 3 if going non-sleeved for 900 wheel. MPR said they're all about the same at that power level. I'm torn...not really wanting to go sleeved, may possibly still just do an aluminator, or even a new stock short block even and send it...

Stay away from gen II. There's documented problems with the head fasteners and if you're starting from the block, just go with 12mm studs and be done with it. Better fastening to the block and better cylinder head retention. The 11mm would probably hold up to moderate power levels just fine, but if there's no appreciable cost difference or savings, just go with a gen1 if you're gonna sleeve it.

I had to personally call ARP (and MMR) to get specs on the 12mm GT350 head stud "kit" and it wasn't really clear between either of them what the torque ratings should be, so I went to 110 lbs (30,50,70,90,.....110 because I'm OCD). (I think ARP said something like 120 or 125 but MMR agreed that was too much).

 

[windsor]

Thanks for the tidbits and insight. I agree, I'd definitely want to go with 12mm studs. Either Gen 1 or 3.

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