Fuel System Mods for E85

[SheepDog]

Whats wrong with the radium bucket that its not much better than an open hanger?

The syphon/venturi that Radium uses, is not adequate when considering keeping the bucket full, regardless of fuel demand or fuel level. The pumps can empty the bucket (especially when fuel levels are low) faster than the syphon system can replenish it. This is even more evident with Automatic transmission cars where there is basically no delay in fuel demand between shifts, on a Long WOT pull (1/4 mile run for example)

Radium is using 2 umbrella valves in the bottom of the bucket, and then a single syphon to draw fuel over from the passenger side of the tank, but this does not address the issue of keeping the bucket full of fuel. The OEM bucket also uses a second venturi to feed fuel into the bucket, from the drivers side as well. the KPM module is even better, as they employ 4 venturis to ensure that the pumps are completely submerged at all times.

The radium bucket does help with fuel slosh starvation, whereas an open hanger design could run the pumps completely dry in the event of hard cornering and lower fuel levels.

Basically, Syphoning fuel from the passenger side alone isn't enough during lower fuel level situations. The system needs to suck fuel from outside the bucket on the drivers side, and dump it back into the bucket as well.

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[SheepDog]

@KPM Fuel Systems

I was wondering if you guys had plans to address the fuel filter issue on your more affordable module options for the GT? Can your upgraded 1/2" line and filter be purchased with the 800-1000hp Modules, or as a stand-alone purchase? How about a fuel filter and bracket in the engine bay that would just intercept the fuel feed tube to the fuel rail?

I don't think the filter socks alone on the pumps are adequate for the DI system considering the requirement for such fine filtration.

 

[Mikepol2]

So now you all have me wondering if I can go E85 (actually sold around here as E51-83 flex)… wanted to originally but got the impression from wengerd that I’d need a major fuel system investment.

ESS G3 120 pulley, Vortech BAP, GT500 injectors and everything else is stock. Am I understanding that Wengerd could do an E51-83 tune for me with this hardware?

 

[5.0_Lojos]

So now you all have me wondering if I can go E85 (actually sold around here as E51-83 flex)… wanted to originally but got the impression from wengerd that I’d need a major fuel system investment.

ESS G3 120 pulley, Vortech BAP, GT500 injectors and everything else is stock. Am I understanding that Wengerd could do an E51-83 tune for me with this hardware?

Did you ask Wengerd? Im tuned by him as well. I did learn something new with these replies about fuel system that maybe isnt spoken much on the diff combos or other makers. From all the research and the one you hear most about is Fore Innov. And possibly the one most tuners tune for. I dont daily drive my car and had it installed by a shop that installs these on a daily basis. So far so good. If you have the money and you and the tuner are on the same page you prob cant go wrong with Fore? The only issue with E85 is that you will be at the fuel station eod... if boosted E85 really is the game changer.

 

[Mikepol2]

Did you ask Wengerd? Im tuned by him as well. I did learn something new with these replies about fuel system that maybe isnt spoken much on the diff combos or other makers. From all the research and the one you hear most about is Fore Innov. And possibly the one most tuners tune for. I dont daily drive my car and had it installed by a shop that installs these on a daily basis. So far so good. If you have the money and you and the tuner are on the same page you prob cant go wrong with Fore? The only issue with E85 is that you will be at the fuel station eod... if boosted E85 really is the game changer.

I did check in with him and he's hesitant... says he doesn't believe the stock pump on bap will handle the fueling needed for e85. Most likely at wot fuel pressure will drop into the 20s causing a lean condition

 

[5.0_Lojos]

I did check in with him and he's hesitant... says he doesn't believe the stock pump on bap will handle the fueling needed for e85. Most likely at wot fuel pressure will drop into the 20s causing a lean condition

Makes sense for him to say that. I think at the end of the day all tuners want something that has been tested and tried to ensure no issues. Regretfully, any issues we come across when tuned we typically blame the tuner (not always but there are many that will blame the tune/tuner) just keep researching and go for a tried and tested kit that will keep up with these demands and that you can grow with. Like they say- "pay once, cry once". There are some knowledgeable peeps here and they have mixed and matched or done things outside of the norm and probably even know how to tune. Assuming you are like me, get it done the right way up front and dont cut corners. At least for me I cant do much in terms of working on the car or ket alone tune a car just follow the advice of your preferred tuner.

 

[engineermike]

I’m running 18 psi boost on e85 using a single dw400/bap and 55# injectors. This is on my gen3 mustang using a Whipple and 3” pulley. Also running a flex tune and cats. Yes, all the thing people say blows up engines in one car.

In my Roush f150 I’m also running cats, flex, 14 psi boost, all on the stock f150 pump, 18v bap, and Roush supplied 47 lb injectors.

If the tune is right, lower fuel pressure will not even cause it to run lean. There are a few layers of protection to prevent that in the gen3. I have several logs showing where the logic stepped in and cut throttle to keep it from going lean. Of course, these protections can be unwittingly defeated by a tuner.

 

[SheepDog]

I did check in with him and he's hesitant... says he doesn't believe the stock pump on bap will handle the fueling needed for e85. Most likely at wot fuel pressure will drop into the 20s causing a lean condition

You probably need a DW400 as well.

 

[5.0_Lojos]

I’m running 18 psi boost on e85 using a single dw400/bap and 55# injectors. This is on my gen3 mustang using a Whipple and 3” pulley. Also running a flex tune and cats. Yes, all the thing people say blows up engines in one car.

In my Roush f150 I’m also running cats, flex, 14 psi boost, all on the stock f150 pump, 18v bap, and Roush supplied 47 lb injectors.

If the tune is right, lower fuel pressure will not even cause it to run lean. There are a few layers of protection to prevent that in the gen3. I have several logs showing where the logic stepped in and cut throttle to keep it from going lean. Of course, these protections can be unwittingly defeated by a tuner.

What does a setup like that cost? +/-? And who is your tuner? I ask because this seems like his ticket to go this route, maybe save some money and have that E85 fun.

 

[Pistol_91]

So now you all have me wondering if I can go E85 (actually sold around here as E51-83 flex)… wanted to originally but got the impression from wengerd that I’d need a major fuel system investment.

ESS G3 120 pulley, Vortech BAP, GT500 injectors and everything else is stock. Am I understanding that Wengerd could do an E51-83 tune for me with this hardware?

G3 120mm with e85 needs a new fuel pump. 93 will be fine with only a BAP. Fuel pressure drops around 6200rpm on e85.

 

[engineermike]

What does a setup like that cost? +/-? And who is your tuner? I ask because this seems like his ticket to go this route, maybe save some money and have that E85 fun.

Which one? In my Mustang a DW400 kit is like $280, plus $600 for the BAP, $310 for the injectors, and about $250 for PCMtec and the dongle. It's a bargain, really, for the power it will support. I am my own tuner, though. Everyone who doesn't self-tune is constrained by the whims of their tuner.

 

[cbrtrx]

A dw400 with a bap and most importantly fuel rails on a gen 3 will work ok for mild to moderate E85 boosted setups. I've done it myself. Problem is you won't find many tuners that will tune for that. It's just easier from a business standpoint to recommend a multi pump setup for everyone. The less time/work they have to put into your tune the better/more cost effective it is for them.

 

[5.0_Lojos]

Which one? In my Mustang a DW400 kit is like $280, plus $600 for the BAP, $310 for the injectors, and about $250 for PCMtec and the dongle. It's a bargain, really, for the power it will support. I am my own tuner, though. Everyone who doesn't self-tune is constrained by the whims of their tuner.

Emphasis added! you have full control of your setup. Sucks to be us

 

[Basspro302]

The syphon/venturi that Radium uses, is not adequate when considering keeping the bucket full, regardless of fuel demand or fuel level. The pumps can empty the bucket (especially when fuel levels are low) faster than the syphon system can replenish it. This is even more evident with Automatic transmission cars where there is basically no delay in fuel demand between shifts, on a Long WOT pull (1/4 mile run for example)

Radium is using 2 umbrella valves in the bottom of the bucket, and then a single syphon to draw fuel over from the passenger side of the tank, but this does not address the issue of keeping the bucket full of fuel. The OEM bucket also uses a second venturi to feed fuel into the bucket, from the drivers side as well. the KPM module is even better, as they employ 4 venturis to ensure that the pumps are completely submerged at all times.

The radium bucket does help with fuel slosh starvation, whereas an open hanger design could run the pumps completely dry in the event of hard cornering and lower fuel levels.

Basically, Syphoning fuel from the passenger side alone isn't enough during lower fuel level situations. The system needs to suck fuel from outside the bucket on the drivers side, and dump it back into the bucket as well.

Do you have any data to support this? I emailed radium before I bought my setup and they said i would not have any issues with fuel starvation. I haven’t seen and drop off in fuel pressure or lean in the data even at 1/8th of a tank. Im not trying to be negative just wondering if there is data some one can share.

 

[cbrtrx]

Do you have any data to support this? I emailed radium before I bought my setup and they said i would not have any issues with fuel starvation. I haven’t seen and drop off in fuel pressure or lean in the data even at 1/8th of a tank. Im not trying to be negative just wondering if there is data some one can share.

I have the radium bucket which I like but it does have some flaws. One that was explained here is at a little below 1/4 tank of fuel it will drop fuel pressure very fast while wot and the car will lean out, under normal driving you can drive it to empty. Basically for me I know that at 1/4 tank left I can do 2 more quick wot blasts after that I just cruise until I can refuel.

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