Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[w3rkn]

I must be missing it. A Camaro 1LE costs $45k and has coolers out the wazoo. A 2017 Mustang GT PP cost less than that (don’t remember the numbers, but recall it being less). A 2018 Mustang GT PP2 costs $44,850 without the coolers that the 2018 Camaro SS 1LE has. Where’s the part where the 1LE buyer can’t afford the PP2 for track and why would they consider it over a car priced the same with lesser content? What am I missing?

Martin, nobody here is talking about the Mustang GT, or a Mustang GT PP1....

What PP2 owner orders the car, (who is clueless about autocross/tracking) and isn't prepared to add coolers at an additional cost, if need be..? So much they will complain about it and order a cheaper 1LE instead..?

I don't see a difference financially between a 1LE and a PP2 w/coolers for an all-day event at COTA..! It costs $$ to play...

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[martinjlm]

I must be missing it. A Camaro 1LE costs $45k and has coolers out the wazoo. A 2017 Mustang GT PP cost less than that (don’t remember the numbers, but recall it being less). A 2018 Mustang GT PP2 costs $44,850 without the coolers that the 2018 Camaro SS 1LE has. Where’s the part where the 1LE buyer can’t afford the PP2 for track and why would they consider it over a car priced the same with lesser content? What am I missing?

Martin, nobody here is talking about the Mustang GT, or a Mustang GT PP1....

I was comparing the 1LE to a 2018 PP2. Look at the red highlights in my post. In 2017 there was no factory PP2 offered, so I referenced the PP, since that’s what a buyer in 2017 would have had to choose from. So for $45k a buyer can get a 2018 PP2 and pay extra for coolers, or they can get a 2018 1LE with coolers included, plus Recaros, plus HUD, plus MagnaRide

What PP2 owner orders the car, (who is clueless about autocross/tracking) and isn't prepared to add coolers at an additional cost, if need be..? So much they will complain about it and order a cheaper 1LE instead..?

I don't see a difference financially between a 1LE and a PP2 w/coolers for an all-day event at COTA..! It costs $$ to play...[/QUOTE] Because, for the 3rd time now, the 1LE is not cheaper....it is the same price with a lot more content. That makes it a better value, not cheaper. $45k for either car from the factory, but you get more with one than the other. That’s not an affordability issue, that’s a choice of content for the same coin issue. Sure, you can add $1,000 aftermarket to the PP2, but why would you when you can already get a car with the coolers and a lot more content for the exact same price? If someone prefers a Mustang to a Camaro and is willing to spend more money to acquire similar capability and content, then that’s a preference. Likewise if someone chooses a 1LE because they want a complete track car it certainly doesn’t mean they “couldn’t afford the Mustang”.

 

[NightmareMoon]

The PP2 car isn't trying to compete with 1LE Camero, just close a hole in Ford's product range. Ford isn't expecting a ton of sales, just to loose a few less to the Camero between $40k-50k, and maybe up-sell some loyal Mustang buyers who can't afford a GT350.

Also, nobody is saving money tracking a brand new muscle car, no matter which one you buy.

 

[thehunterooo]

Nah I would say it is more of forum vs forum. From my time being on both sites, you guys and the other guys have a rivalry. And so if someone comes over here and is anything but a diehard fan then you guys take your anger towards the other site out on people over here who have nothing to do with them. And they do the same exact thing. And everyone is a "troll" or "fanboy" and what have you. But that is forum talk these days. And it doesn't really matter because it's just that, forum talk.

That is fine and all but I just hate the fake people that come on here and act nice then run around and slander the same people. People need to stop lying and trying to cover for others as it is very transparent.

Also just to point out more lies and BS everyone’s friend MESDIEN or whatever their name is stated previously that people are only buying the Mustang because they are impoverished and can’t afford the Camaro. I’m sure I made that up though

Why would someone ever make that comment?

 

[thehunterooo]

It all spells bullsh!t to me. Just letters invented in 2015 when the camaro was no longer the sales leader. Remember how camaro5 used to put out a thread. Ever month with pretty graphs and pie charts? Now they get to reminisce about the good old days ever 3 months.

There is 100% evidence for this post. I’ll gladly grab it if asked.

Camaro6 used to post on the front page if the Camaro won that month of course it hasn’t led in sales for a long time so people forget that even existed. I also never had seen anyone use fleet sales or ATP before like that to try to say one car is better then another as well. I understand why though. When you call people murderers, say a car is complete trash and such but get outsold by said trash it is embarrassing.

 

[4V Mayhem]

The PP2 car isn't trying to compete with 1LE Camero, just close a hole in Ford's product range. Ford isn't expecting a ton of sales, just to loose a few less to the Camero between $40k-50k, and maybe up-sell some loyal Mustang buyers who can't afford a GT350.

Also, nobody is saving money tracking a brand new muscle car, no matter which one you buy.

I think everyone will disagree with you on this. The PP2 is a direct competitor to the 1LE and was made to answer it. The problem is that the car hasn't even hit the tracks yet and people are already criticizing it for not having coolers. For all we know it doesn't even need coolers.

That is fine and all but I just hate the fake people that come on here and act nice then run around and slander the same people. People need to stop lying and trying to cover for others as it is very transparent.

Also just to point out more lies and BS everyone’s friend MESDIEN or whatever their name is stated previously that people are only buying the Mustang because they are impoverished and can’t afford the Camaro. I’m sure I made that up though

Why would someone ever make that comment?

While that may be true I personally have been on here for over 2 years. And I've been called everything in the book. Including being accused of things that I have no part of. I don't care because the same thing happens on the other site. The ones who take the most abuse are those of us who truly enjoy both cars. Because if you're not a diehard, like I said, then you get flamed for everything you say no matter how reasonable it is.

 

[thehunterooo]

I think everyone will disagree with you on this. The PP2 is a direct competitor to the 1LE and was made to answer it. The problem is that the car hasn't even hit the tracks yet and people are already criticizing it for not having coolers. For all we know it doesn't even need coolers.


While that may be true I personally have been on here for over 2 years. And I've been called everything in the book. Including being accused of things that I have no part of. I don't care because the same thing happens on the other site. The ones who take the most abuse are those of us who truly enjoy both cars. Because if you're not a diehard, like I said, then you get flamed for everything you say no matter how reasonable it is.

Except when someone makes unreasonable statements that is what happens. It’s not hard to figure out and see that people are trolling. People coming on here to cry about how this fourm doesn’t worship the Camaro is stupid. What reaction does everyone expect? That is what has been going on for nearly four years now. I am not sure what people are looking for honestly.

I’ll give you an example. Someone buys a Camaro and then comes on here and says it is overall the better car in everyway (happens weekly), I guess everyone on here should say “that is great I hate my Mustang because the Camaro is better!” Is that what people are looking for?

 

[w3rkn]

I was comparing the 1LE to a 2018 PP2. Look at the red highlights in my post. In 2017 there was no factory PP2 offered, so I referenced the PP, since that’s what a buyer in 2017 would have had to choose from. So for $45k a buyer can get a 2018 PP2 and pay extra for coolers, or they can get a 2018 1LE with coolers included, plus Recaros, plus HUD, plus MagnaRide

Because, for the 3rd time now, the 1LE is not cheaper....it is the same price with a lot more content. That makes it a better value, not cheaper. $45k for either car from the factory, but you get more with one than the other. That’s not an affordability issue, that’s a choice of content for the same coin issue. Sure, you can add $1,000 aftermarket to the PP2, but why would you when you can already get a car with the coolers and a lot more content for the exact same price? If someone prefers a Mustang to a Camaro and is willing to spend more money to acquire similar capability and content, then that’s a preference. Likewise if someone chooses a 1LE because they want a complete track car it certainly doesn’t mean they “couldn’t afford the Mustang”.

Martin...
No need to keep repeating yourself, or backtracking. Also, nobody is talking about 2017 either..

What you are missing... is that Camaro 1LE owner's are afraid to modify or install anything on their cars and only drive them, as is... (right?). So they only buy the cheaper option because they can't afford to upgrade stuff on their own... (right?) They only buy the Camaro because it is a "turn-key" track car, with no mods needed... (right?)

That isn't the argument I am posing, it is the ones being posed by Camaro fans on this site. What you are missing is that I am repeating their redirect and you are responding to them, not me.


I am also using logic to rebuttal their own comments, like them constantly saying the Camaro SS 1LE is a better track car. It is not, because having coolers doesn't make it a better track car, it makes it more able to be a track car. The same ability the Mustang GT PP2 has, with after market coolers.

I keep using the "can't afford" to illustrate how stupid, some of the Camaro fans arguments are. The same ones who don't track, don't know the cost of tracking and have never bought a second set of tires mid-season... are daunted/afraid of spending $1,200 on coolers.. is somehow an issue for adding more track ability to their cars.


Both the Camaro 1LE & the Mustang PP2 cost $45k.... and both come with magneride, etc.

Yet Camaro owner are afraid to spend more... understand..? Or so they keep suggesting/admitting to us all. (They argue, that they want the cheapest turn-key solution for the track, period.) So I am making phun of those people and of their ignorant comments here. Leaving them with the notion of; they can't afford coolers, so they chose a 1LE instead. Or these same individuals only track their cars with turn-key solutions.

Which is laughable.




So, if both cars are near equal in performance, and have the ability to be all-day track worthy... why buy a Camaro that has poor visibility, poor ergonomic and whos styling is horrid..? (I suspect, it is because they got a deal on the car and they made a compromise.)

Just like you did Martin, because you bought a convertible, FOR TRACKING...

 

[Hack]

So we know that Ford never intended to put coolers on the PP2. My question is why they chose not to. Do they not want it to be raced? Do they not want to warranty it? Was it a way for them to save some money on it? Because it seems that GM has no problems letting their cars be tracked and design them to handle the track. What is the reason why Ford seems to be taking the opposite stance? Could it be that the car won't actually need coolers?

I don't think it's that easy to come up with a cooler setup that is as durable as Ford wants it to be. Remember that the GT350s have already had a cooler line recall. The MT-82 case doesn't have provisions for cooler lines to be attached, I assume. So Ford could have had a unique transmission case designed, but then they would still have to come up with the pump, lines, etc. There are aftermarket systems available, but they probably don't meet Ford's specs for reliability or for ease of installation on the assembly line.

The other thing is that Ford could have just dropped in the GT350 transmission with built in cooler and the rear diff cooler, but possibly they didn't want to use that many unique GT350 components on the PP2.

I would be really surprised if the PP2 won't bump up against heat warnings when driven hard on the track.

 

[Laststandard]

I wandered over into the track sub forum here as I was curious about the alignment capabilities on the Mustang.. and only a few posts down is a thread on the PP2 rear diff overheating at the track

 

[Timeless]

I wandered over into the track sub forum here as I was curious about the alignment capabilities on the Mustang.. and only a few posts down is a thread on the PP2 rear diff overheating at the track

Truly a no brainer that the PP2 will overheat. Nothing different to help with cooling over the PP1 and the PP2 will certainly be driven harder with the better tires.

 

[Hack]

From a consumer point of view, ATP means zip. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist and that it is not measured. Vehicle program executives (Chief Engineers, Program Managers, Sales Executives) pay and bonuses are based at least in part on meeting ATP targets. The information is readily available to those willing to pay for subscriptions to the services that collect that data. When I was at GM, I had access to that data, so I know it exists. Now that I am retired from GM, I work for a company that collects that data and I see it first hand. From that I know that the general order amongst pony cars / muscle cars is Camaro > Mustang > Challenger / Charger. I also know that if you take the number of cars sold x ATP you get Total Gross Revenue contributed by each carline to the company’s bottom line. When you work the math for Camaro and Mustang, Mustang sells more cars, Camaro brings more ATP per car, and they are within spitting distance of each other for Total Gross Revenue. Just under $2B each to the Ford and GM bottom lines.

Again, to the person considering buying either car, it means absolutely zero. I only mentioned it in my earlier post because it is data that shows that on average, buyers spend more for Camaros than they do for Mustang, so the idea that people buy Camaros because they can’t afford Mustangs makes no sense.

As a consumer, when I see similar cars and one is cheaper, I assume that the company (Ford) with the less expensive car has been more cost efficient at designing and building the car. Either that, or they are less greedy (net profits are lower).

So I disagree with your contention that ATP doesn't matter to consumers.

I also think it's misleading to talk about gross revenue as if it is meaningful for a business. GM could have high gross revenues and still go bankrupt and require a government bailout. Net profit, on the other hand, is very meaningful for the company.

So there's my overdue feedback on all this ATP stuff you keep throwing around. I think it's meaningless and misleading. I would prefer you stick to subjects that matter.

 

[thehunterooo]

As a consumer, when I see similar cars and one is cheaper, I assume that the company (Ford) with the less expensive car has been more cost efficient at designing and building the car. Either that, or they are less greedy (net profits are lower).

So I disagree with your contention that ATP doesn't matter to consumers.

I also think it's misleading to talk about gross revenue as if it is meaningful for a business. GM could have high gross revenues and still go bankrupt and require a government bailout. Net profit, on the other hand, is very meaningful for the company.

So there's my overdue feedback on all this ATP stuff you keep throwing around. I think it's meaningless and misleading. I would prefer you stick to subjects that matter.

GM never went bankrupt!!!!1 #fakenews #nofleetsales #highATP #staymadbro

 

[martinjlm]

There is 100% evidence for this post. I’ll gladly grab it if asked.

Camaro6 used to post on the front page if the Camaro won that month of course it hasn’t led in sales for a long time so people forget that even existed. I also never had seen anyone use fleet sales or ATP before like that to try to say one car is better then another as well. I understand why though. When you call people murderers, say a car is complete trash and such but get outsold by said trash it is embarrassing.

You are very much correct that Camaro6 used to post every month when Camaro outsold Mustang and that has been like crickets lately. No doubt about that. As far as the fleet sales and ATP are concerned, I’ll just say three things about that and just let it go...

1. They are demonstrable facts. There is a difference in fleet sales and consumer sales. Every car company tracks them and every car company manages them, but often differently. Ford and FCA are fine with having a lot of fleet sales. GM intentionally works to minimize them. Fleet sales has a two-fold affect on Average Transaction Price (ATP). It lowers ATP because the fleet vehicles are typically sold with less content and at a significantly lower price than consumer sales. Then when those vehicles come out of service they are sold at low prices which can compete with price of new vehicles and bring those prices down through incentives.
2. Neither fleet sales or ATP has any correlation at all with what is or is not the better car. They simply reflect different ways of doing business and measuring the results.
3. Why any one car outsells any other car is not a light switch on/off or better / worse scenario. There are so many variables involved that there is rarely any one size fits all answer. It’s a stack up of preferences involving design, capability, styling, price, available content. Just from an objective standpoint I chose my car because of what I see as performance, available features, and styling differences, in that order. Others may make the opposite choice if they make it based on daily functionality, visibility, and price. Which is the better car? Depends on who has to live with it from day-to-day.

Any Camaro owner who says Mustangs are complete trash are talking out of the side of their ass and/or from the safety of a keyboard and a screen. Likewise Mustang owners who say Camaros are trash. Both are awesome brands with really interesting models and variants and most of them are a blast to drive. We all have reasons why we drive one or the other (or both). The fact that we (singular individuals) don’t like one does not invalidate that car for anyone else.

 

[martinjlm]

As a consumer, when I see similar cars and one is cheaper, I assume that the company (Ford) with the less expensive car has been more cost efficient at designing and building the car. Either that, or they are less greedy (net profits are lower).

So I disagree with your contention that ATP doesn't matter to consumers.

I also think it's misleading to talk about gross revenue as if it is meaningful for a business. GM could have high gross revenues and still go bankrupt and require a government bailout. Net profit, on the other hand, is very meaningful for the company.

So there's my overdue feedback on all this ATP stuff you keep throwing around. I think it's meaningless and misleading. I would prefer you stick to subjects that matter.

You disagree that it doesn’t matter (double negative that I interpret to mean that it does...correct me if I’m wrong) and then you conclude by saying it doesn’t matter.

GM never went bankrupt!!!!1 #fakenews #nofleetsales #highATP #staymadbro

Oh, hell yeah that happened. And one result of that is an almost maniacal focus on ATP. GM learned the lesson that leading in sales volume and market share doesn’t matter if you need to maintain ridiculously high volumes to break even. But if you can control costs and command high ATP, you can make profits even when volumes tank. GM was losing money when the US car industry sold 14 million vehicles a year. GM is now in position to still make money if the industry volume drops to as low as 10 million (currently somewhere around 16 - 17M). But again, this is more an issue of corporate governance and strategy and really doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the consumer consideration of “which car should I buy?”

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