Another 2020 GT350 engine failure

[lenFeb]

Let me put my journalist hat on. Bore and stroke remained unchanged to previous years which is 94mm x 93mm. The GT500 also has that same bore and stroke. Ford never mentioned in any press junkets or media events that they changed the cylinder head in the GT350 in 2019 or up.

I never said Ford changed cylinder head, I said assume. Also, There wasn't any press releases about Ford mentioning any changes in 2019+ Voodoo engine, only minor changes for 2019 GT350. Are you sure you put your journalist hat on?

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[LFG_Cory]

For what's it's worth, I have 8,498 miles on the Gen2 GT350R Voodoo and no issues. (knock on wood).

 

[Wildcardfox]

I never said Ford changed cylinder head, I said assume. Also, There wasn't any press releases about Ford mentioning any changes in 2019+ Voodoo engine, only minor changes for 2019 GT350. Are you sure you put your journalist hat on?

I actually didn’t accuse you of saying that, I clarified that the bore and stroke is not different from any other years and any block changes did not include a change in valve train or cylinder head which you were wondering. I also pointed out that because there was a change in block to the GT500 block in 2019, that did not equal any other changes which your post was wondering about—including a chance in cylinder heads.

There were a lot of changes for the 2019 vs previous base models, and some changes in the 2019 R. I offered my insight which is more than the average consumer has because I am a journalist. Based on the anger in your response, it seems that you take offense. Best.

 

[lenFeb]

I actually didn’t accuse you of saying that, I clarified that the bore and stroke is not different from any other years and any block changes did not include a change in valve train or cylinder head which you were wondering. I also pointed out that because there was a change in block to the GT500 block in 2019, that did not equal any other changes which your post was wondering about—including a chance in cylinder heads.

There were a lot of changes for the 2019 vs previous base models, and some changes in the 2019 R. I offered my insight which is more than the average consumer has because I am a journalist. Based on the anger in your response, it seems that you take offense. Best.

Fare enough. What bothers me is that Ford never come forward and give any explanation why engines being failed in any of the cases. Ford keeping they customers in the dark.
For example, Ferrari came forward and explain a flow in they crankshaft production - https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2012-may-21-la-fi-mo-ferrari-recall-20120521-story.html

 

[Questortapes74]

Does anyone know if the parts numbers are the same for the intake valves, exhaust valves, valve springs, and valve spring retainers between the GT350 and GT500? I tried to search the parts myself and only found a generic responses for the 5.2 liter “modular” engine. My suspicion is that if the GT350’s and GT500’s use the same respective parts and there is a MY2020 “bad batch”, then there would also be possibly a few complaints for GT500 owners with engine failures due to the valve train. At the end of the day, my father and I had several conversations years ago about engine harmonics. In those conversations he used to say, “Vibration is not your friend.”

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DCShelby]

Only Ford knows who they source parts from. Supplier chains are kept very secret. So even if the valves came from different sources they’d have the same part number. But it could be the valve or the retainer too, or both. I imagine Ford would rather just replace engines as needed rather than just replace all at once, like Porsche did with the GT3 a few years ago when some were throwing rods due to a faulty rod cap bolt and stud, going through the engine cases and making them into fireballs. They also had issues with the diamond coating on the cam followers flaking off and they covered that too, no questions asked. Now that was all paid for by sales of the Macan and Cayenne, which are their big money makers...not the 911 sales.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I don’t think you are in the clear, mine was at 720 miles, another exact same failure was at 1100 miles. Now this one at 200, definitely a bad component in the valvetrain. I would think this should merit a recall soon if there are more failures...

If Ford got a bad batch of parts but not a part they know the batch number used in each VIN, they might do what Cadillac did when they decided it was too expensive to replace or dissemble and inspect every unsold car that might have the bad part. Wait for it..... They told dealers to start each car and rev the %$^& out of it and set aside the ones that failed for new engines.

Interestingly, they did NOT update the break in procedures in the owners manual accordingly.

 

[Questortapes74]

Only Ford knows who they source parts from. Supplier chains are kept very secret. So even if the valves came from different sources they’d have the same part number. But it could be the valve or the retainer too, or both. I imagine Ford would rather just replace engines as needed rather than just replace all at once, like Porsche did with the GT3 a few years ago when some were throwing rods due to a faulty rod cap bolt and stud, going through the engine cases and making them into fireballs. They also had issues with the diamond coating on the cam followers flaking off and they covered that too, no questions asked. Now that was all paid for by sales of the Macan and Cayenne, which are their big money makers...not the 911 sales.

Thanks for the response. What amazes me to this day is layers of suppliers for any medium (Ferrari) to large (Ford) size mass manufacturing product. I remember the 2019 Bullitt launch having a slow start as there was only one specific supplier for the white cue ball styled shifter knob. Was this specific supplier delayed also due their suppliers who in turn were delayed by their suppliers, etc...

 

[Shane]

We know that starting with 2019+ Voodoo engines sharing blocks/components with Predators. Bore and Stroke are the same for both. So, I assume they sharing the same cylinder heads as well.
I've searched for GT500 engine failure and couldn't find any. However, I found four instances of 2020 GT350 engine failure. I'm trying to apply logic to this pattern. The most noticeable difference between this engines is a crank shaft. Voodoo have flat plane and Predator cross plane. When Ford developed Voodoo the prototype was Ferrari's engine from 458 Italia with flat plane crank. Ford chooses different crankshaft layout for Voodoo(U-D-U-D) than one from Ferrari(U - D - D - U). So, why Ford decided to do different crankshaft layout? I found the below discussion very interesting and deserve attention:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=401468

This MT article does a really good job explaining why the Voodoo was designed the way it was

https://www.motortrend.com/news/flat-out-an-in-depth-look-at-the-ford-shelby-gt350-mustang-engine/

 

[DCShelby]

A friend of mine consults in the DOD world of manufacturing parts for the F35 and other aircraft, and he’s told me of the various parts that had problems and what they had to do to get better yields on them and what that means to supply chains. For example the valves in the vodoo are made by a supplier, but that supplier makes them from metal they get from their suppliers and that’s traced back to ore grade and how it was smelted and what other alloys were added in. It’s all so very connected. Did the people that make the metal ingots do any quality control? Did the people that make the valves use the right process to melt if down then cast and machine the valves? Who knows.

 

[lenFeb]

This MT article does a really good job explaining why the Voodoo was designed the way it was

https://www.motortrend.com/news/flat-out-an-in-depth-look-at-the-ford-shelby-gt350-mustang-engine/

Thanks! Good read.

 

[lenFeb]

A friend of mine consults in the DOD world of manufacturing parts for the F35 and other aircraft, and he’s told me of the various parts that had problems and what they had to do to get better yields on them and what that means to supply chains. For example the valves in the vodoo are made by a supplier, but that supplier makes them from metal they get from their suppliers and that’s traced back to ore grade and how it was smelted and what other alloys were added in. It’s all so very connected. Did the people that make the metal ingots do any quality control? Did the people that make the valves use the right process to melt if down then cast and machine the valves? Who knows.

Exactly - Who knows...
Take for example Rolex watches. All they components, including cases metals, made inhouse(except hands I think). So, Rolex watches are exceptional quality.

 

[Harb]

Well this is quite worrying to me. Recently purchased a CPO 2017 GT350 with 6k miles. Was burning about 5-6 quarts of oil per 1,000 miles. Ford Performance required my dealer to have me drive it 3,000 miles after each "fix" implemented (Twice in total). The day prior to the engine replacement appointment my vehicle began to exhibit loud rattle noises from 1.5-2.5k RPM from the exhaust and continued to do so, dealer has yet to find the issue. Finally at 14,000 miles it's being replaced with the new 2020 R engine per the Service Advisor. I'm praying it's not going to get seized due to any manufacturing issues with the 2020s..

Crazy considering how amazing this car is. And in all honesty, even with the issues I've had I would still buy this car again in a heartbeat.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

I suspect that in a large portion of the engine failures, operator error was the cause. Either people revving the piss out of their cold motors or running low on oil without knowing it. I'm also skeptical of the morons at the dealerships who (yes, I'm saying it) don't have the common sense to torque oil filters correctly (leaks), reinsert a drain plug correctly (leaks) or even add the correct viscosity or quantity of oil to to the car. How many oil/lube techs don't know that the Vodoo motor takes 10 quarts of oil? So right when you leave the dealership you could be starting off 1.5 - 2.0 quarts low. Spin it up to redline and then bam... someone please call a flatbed.

Yesterday, I watched the guy who has the "Rated R Cars" youtube channel check his oil with the dipstick handle angled lower than tip where the oil was dripping down the dipstick. He never wiped the dipstick and then reinserted to get a clean read either. His response was, "yup, oil level looks good". Really? Also, his video documenting his engine issues appeared to be shot after leaving the dealership with a fresh oil change. Coincidence?

How about the people running E85 tunes and superchargers? One bad tune in combination with shitty fuel can lean out the fuel delivery, cause detonation and grenade the motor in a heartbeat before the onboard diagnostics can retard the timing to compensate. Finally, how about the countless test drives before people bought their cars where some ignorant salesperson tells a customer to go ahead and hammer the car to see what she can do.... while the motor is still cold. Did I mention the countless members who state that they never take the car past 2k rpms when the motor is cold or they never take their car past 4k rpms during the break in period.... technically, I'd rather slightly over rev a cold motor than lug the engine. In addition, when you never spin a new engine (like the Voodoo) up past 4k rpms for roughly the first 1000 miles, do you really think your piston rings are thanking you for it?

I'm not saying there isn't a potential defect with these motors but what I am saying is that there are a lot of fucking idiots running around the universe who don't know that they don't know. If we could strip away the idiots who caused their own engine issues and isolate those who know how to drive and take care of this type of vehicle, I bet the engine defects coming out of the factory would be few and far between.

 

[Alain]

I suspect that in a large portion of the engine failures, operator error was the cause. Either people revving the piss out of their cold motors or running low on oil without knowing it. I'm also skeptical of the morons at the dealerships who (yes, I'm saying it) don't have the common sense to torque oil filters correctly (leaks), reinsert a drain plug correctly (leaks) or even add the correct viscosity or quantity of oil to to the car. How many oil/lube techs don't know that the Vodoo motor takes 10 quarts of oil? So right when you leave the dealership you could be starting off 1.5 - 2.0 quarts low. Spin it up to redline and then bam... someone please call a flatbed.

Yesterday, I watched the guy who has the "Rated R Cars" youtube channel check his oil with the dipstick handle angled lower than tip where the oil was dripping down the dipstick. He never wiped the dipstick and then reinserted to get a clean read either. His response was, "yup, oil level looks good". Really? Also, his video documenting his engine issues appeared to be shot after leaving the dealership with a fresh oil change. Coincidence?

How about the people running E85 tunes and superchargers? One bad tune in combination with shitty fuel can lean out the fuel delivery, cause detonation and grenade the motor in a heartbeat before the onboard diagnostics can retard the timing to compensate. Finally, how about the countless test drives before people bought their cars where some ignorant salesperson tells a customer to go ahead and hammer the car to see what she can do.... while the motor is still cold. Did I mention the countless members who state that they never take the car past 2k rpms when the motor is cold or they never take their car past 4k rpms during the break in period.... technically, I'd rather slightly over rev a cold motor than lug the engine. In addition, when you never spin a new engine (like the Voodoo) up past 4k rpms for roughly the first 1000 miles, do you really think your piston rings are thanking you for it?

I'm not saying there isn't a potential defect with these motors but what I am saying is that there are a lot of fucking idiots running around the universe who don't know that they don't know. If we could strip away the idiots who caused their own engine issues and isolate those who know how to drive and take care of this type of vehicle, I bet the engine defects coming out of the factory would be few and far between.

this is a great point. But, we still have to take into account that the same idiots, bad salesmen and bad technicians found at Ford dealerships are also found at GM and Dodge dealers. Yet, those motors are not failing as frequently as the Voodoo. I think the Voodoo is a special motor that requires a different level of attention and break in.

I've been a member at the camaro and hellcat forums for a long time and I haven't heard of motors failing there with the same frequency that we get here. The Voodoo is special in many ways and maybe that specialness is what's making it more fragile then the engines in the Hellcat and the ZL1.

My 2019R has only 20 miles on it, when I take the cover off this spring I'm going to ride it up to 6500 RPMs and do a lot of engine breaking, it seems to me that the Voodoo needs this special type of treatment.
My Hellcat and my ZL1 1LE were kept under 4,000 RPMs during break in and they don't burn any oil, they run and pull like freight trains. Sounds like the Voodoo wants the opposite.

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