Alignment recommendation HPDE

[Walt]

I know that the best alignment settings are based on the tracks you run at, but I'm looking for a good baseline.

I have a 2017 Mustang Ecoboost with the performance package. My use is track driving and spirited weekend driving, not a daily.
My new tires are 200tw Yokohama AD09 255/40 R19 square setup.

The outer edges of my tires are really suffering on track, the middle and inside look new while the outside is close to cording.

I know that I need more negative camber, as much as I can get, so I installed camber bolts. I can get the camber to about -2.2 degrees in the front with these bolts.

I don't really know what I should do with toe and caster?

I like the handling of the stock alignment, I am doing this purely for better tire wear but I would still like the car to be stable and controllable.

Front:
Camber: -2.2 degrees max
Toe: ? (should I do 0 degrees or -0.1 degrees or something else)?
Caster: ? Leave stock? (6.91 degrees I think?)

Rear:
Camber: ?
Toe: ?
Caster: ?


Picture of old street tire:

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[NightmareMoon]

2.2 is still complete inadequate to protect the tires. You’ll still have massive wear on the shoulders. Shoulda gotten camber plates!

As for the rest, 0 front toe. Caster isnt adjustable. Rear neg camber around 1.8-2.0 and rear toe IN between 0.24 and 0.3 (total combined both sides)

 

[Ewheels]

My alignment is as follows and seems to wear pretty well.

Front:
-3 camber
0 toe

Rear:
-2 camber
0.12 toe in (per side)

Could probably use a little more camber but it's fine for now.

EDIT: The most negative camber I could get with camber plates and stock strut openings was -2.8 To get more, I had to cut the strut tower openings. Steeda makes a nice tool to do it yourself (Steeda sells globally so you should be able to get one in Belgium if you wanted to go that route.)

 

[Walt]

2.2 is still complete inadequate to protect the tires. You’ll still have massive wear on the shoulders. Shoulda gotten camber plates!

As for the rest, 0 front toe. Caster isnt adjustable. Rear neg camber around 1.8-2.0 and rear toe IN between 0.24 and 0.3 (total combined both sides)

If I run -2.2 camber in the front, is -2 in the rear fine? Or is that too much in the rear compared to the front?

Different car I know but I found Ford recommended track settings for the dark horse and they mentioned:

Front:
Camber: -2.25
Toe: 0.1

Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe total: 0.3

I was thinking of following this but set the front toe at 0 for better wear.

Not gonna go in too much detail but camber plates are not street legal where I'm at, bolts are. You don't ever need camber plates for regular road stuff so it is seen as race stuff and thus considered unsafe and illegal. Makes no sense I know but it is what it is.

That being said considering that one would eventually get camber plates and will totally not run those on the street and take them off for inspection, what settings would you recommend for the front? Does this more camber in front have an impact on the rear?

 

[Ewheels]

If I run -2.2 camber in the front, is -2 in the rear fine? Or is that too much in the rear compared to the front?

Different car I know but I found Ford recommended track settings for the dark horse and they mentioned:

Front:
Camber: -2.25
Toe: 0.1

Rear:
Camber: -1.5
Toe total: 0.3

I was thinking of following this but set the front toe at 0 for better wear.

Not gonna go in too much detail but camber plates are not street legal where I'm at, bolts are. You don't ever need camber plates for regular road stuff so it is seen as race stuff and thus considered unsafe and illegal. Makes no sense I know but it is what it is.

That being said considering that one would eventually get camber plates and will totally not run those on the street and take them off for inspection, what settings would you recommend for the front? Does this more camber in front have an impact on the rear?

I would max out the front camber with your bolts and make the rears 1 degree less. So if it were -2.2 in front, do -1.2 in the rear.
And yes, always zero toe in the front, regardless of the amount of camber.

 

[Walt]

My alignment is as follows and seems to wear pretty well.

Front:
-3 camber
0 toe

Rear:
-2 camber
0.12 toe in (per side)

Could probably use a little more camber but it's fine for now.

EDIT: The most negative camber I could get with camber plates and stock strut openings was -2.8 To get more, I had to cut the strut tower openings. Steeda makes a nice tool to do it yourself (Steeda sells globally so you should be able to get one in Belgium if you wanted to go that route.)

Thanks, if I only get about -2.2 degrees in the front, would -2 in the rear be too much? Not sure if it would upset the balance or anything, I've never done an alignment before for the track. I'm only doing it now since I'm on my first "real" set of track oriented tires (200tw) and those are more expensive to destroy that quickly.

Before I wasn't quick enough to really do much damage but now the tires are going down fast so I'm trying to learn as much as possible but would still like the "safety" feeling of stock alignment

 

[Ewheels]

but would still like the "safety" feeling of stock alignment

A track alignment will feel significantly better on track. The car will feel like it actually wants to turn. Not to mention the improved tire wear.

As for track alignment on the street....the car will feel more 'darty' if that makes sense. It will follow cracks and dips in the road more (more so with wider tires so you might be fine with 255's). Nothing severe but just be aware since you mentioned you wanted the 'safe' feeling of stock alignment.
Basically, the car will feel alive and lively, rather than numb and floaty.

 

[Walt]

A track alignment will feel significantly better on track. The car will feel like it actually wants to turn. Not to mention the improved tire wear.

As for track alignment on the street....the car will feel more 'darty' if that makes sense. It will follow cracks and dips in the road more (more so with wider tires so you might be fine with 255's). Nothing severe but just be aware since you mentioned you wanted the 'safe' feeling of stock alignment.
Basically, the car will feel alive and lively, rather than numb and floaty.

That's what I'm looking for, a good but "safe" feeling on track. The street matters less as this is not my daily and I don't see those kind of speeds on the street. Mostly driving in dry weather as well unless it rains during a track day.

 

[Aonarch]

That's what I'm looking for, a good but "safe" feeling on track. The street matters less as this is not my daily and I don't see those kind of speeds on the street. Mostly driving in dry weather as well unless it rains during a track day.

I went with Ford's alignment spec outlined in the Mach 1 owner's manual.

Front camber: -2.25
Front toe: 0.1
Rear camber -1.5
Rear toe: 0.3

As mentioned, for heavy track use, I'd go -3 front and -2 rear, but I am running this both track and street and it feels great. I will see higher front tire wear though, and potentially less front end grip.

 

[Ewheels]

That's what I'm looking for, a good but "safe" feeling on track. The street matters less as this is not my daily and I don't see those kind of speeds on the street. Mostly driving in dry weather as well unless it rains during a track day.

I know you didn't ask but it sort of goes along with this discussion, but are you driving with stability and traction control on?

If you're relatively new to track driving or not completely comfortable with the car yet, definitely leave them on. They will keep you out of the walls and driving home in one piece.
If you're at the point where you can identify that they are indeed holding you back and slowing you down, turn them off and the car will feel so much better. They are designed to prevent the car from spinning (and they do a good job at that) but when driving at the limit, you want a little bit of slip to help the car rotate.

Just food for thought.

 

[Aonarch]

I know you didn't ask but it sort of goes along with this discussion, but are you driving with stability and traction control on?

If you're relatively new to track driving or not completely comfortable with the car yet, definitely leave them on. They will keep you out of the walls and driving home in one piece.
If you're at the point where you can identify that they are indeed holding you back and slowing you down, turn them off and the car will feel so much better. They are designed to prevent the car from spinning (and they do a good job at that) but when driving at the limit, you want a little bit of slip to help the car rotate.

Just food for thought.

Agreed!

This is where autocross is a great way of teaching a driver, because if you spin out in the middle of a parking lot, there is no damage. Assuming the course is safe.

 

[Walt]

I know you didn't ask but it sort of goes along with this discussion, but are you driving with stability and traction control on?

If you're relatively new to track driving or not completely comfortable with the car yet, definitely leave them on. They will keep you out of the walls and driving home in one piece.
If you're at the point where you can identify that they are indeed holding you back and slowing you down, turn them off and the car will feel so much better. They are designed to prevent the car from spinning (and they do a good job at that) but when driving at the limit, you want a little bit of slip to help the car rotate.

Just food for thought.

For my first 5 track days or so I did run in street and later sport+ untill I was comfortable. This came at the expense of my (rear) brakes.

Since my last 2 track days I finally dared to run in track mode, clenching my cheeks as I got through my first fast corner, and nothing special happened.

The car felt so much better and didn't try to fight me like before. I have since driven with it off and saved myself time in most corners in the process.

Should've turned it off much sooner but like you said I want to drive home in one piece in that same car and didn't know what to expect.

I'll leave advanced track on though in case things don't go as planned.

My last track day on the tires pictures above, I really tried to listen for them screaming as well and tried to minimize as much noise as I could.

Before I was probably overdriving the tires and turning too much. Now I focus on being as smooth as possible and going slower instead of turning more.

I'm only off by about 2 seconds on my best laps but I'm seeing much better tire wear. I also do 15min sessions now instead of being 30mins on track until the oil temp warning is nearing yellow, that is probably also helping for the tires.

The only track I won't turn off traction control yet is the Nordschleife, there just isn't any room for error and I don't know the track well enough yet.

As a side note, what tire pressures are you running? I keep mine at about 36 PSI hot

 

[Ewheels]

For my first 5 track days or so I did run in street and later sport+ untill I was comfortable. This came at the expense of my (rear) brakes.

Since my last 2 track days I finally dared to run in track mode, clenching my cheeks as I got through my first fast corner, and nothing special happened.

The car felt so much better and didn't try to fight me like before. I have since driven with it off and saved myself time in most corners in the process.

Should've turned it off much sooner but like you said I want to drive home in one piece in that same car and didn't know what to expect.

I'll leave advanced track on though in case things don't go as planned.

My last track day on the tires pictures above, I really tried to listen for them screaming as well and tried to minimize as much noise as I could.

Before I was probably overdriving the tires and turning too much. Now I focus on being as smooth as possible and going slower instead of turning more.

I'm only off by about 2 seconds on my best laps but I'm seeing much better tire wear. I also do 15min sessions now instead of being 30mins on track until the oil temp warning is nearing yellow, that is probably also helping for the tires.

As a side note, what tire pressures are you running? I keep mine at about 36 PSI hot

That is great to hear. Glad you are enjoying the car.
I have gotten to the point now where I can feel AdvanceTrak holding me back. I might have to try pulling the fuse next time.

I think I'm about 34 hot. Tire wear is a good indicator especially with minimal camber. If you see wear on the sidewalls, up the tire pressures.

Use the triangles on the sidewalls as an indicator. The wear should come right up to but not past the triangles.

 

[Walt]

I went with Ford's alignment spec outlined in the Mach 1 owner's manual.

Front camber: -2.25
Front toe: 0.1
Rear camber -1.5
Rear toe: 0.3

As mentioned, for heavy track use, I'd go -3 front and -2 rear, but I am running this both track and street and it feels great. I will see higher front tire wear though, and potentially less front end grip.

That seems to be the same as the Dark Horse one, but it is reassuring that they also recommend this for the s550 platform.

Any reason you went with 0.1 toe instead of 0 toe in the front? I know that's what's recommended by Ford but 0 should lead to better wear, or is this not really noticable for you?

 

[WItoTX]

Just get the Ford camber plates. I highly doubt anyone will be able to identify them.

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